Fahrenheit as Film

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Originally posted by Johann
As I have said, anduril won't see Fahrenheit.
His whole belief system collapses if he does.

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C'mon, Jason. You can do better than that.

BTW, I saw Bowling for Columbine yesterday; it was on Movie Central. Now, this was a movie where I anticipated I might sympathize with Moore as I share similar views about some of the issues raised but, man, I couldn't believe what I was watching. It was almost enough to make me hurl. His fuzzy logic; constantly undermining his own arguments; jumping all over the place with disconnected and decontextualized ideas/facts/events; his insensitive way of conducting interviews; his political gamesmanship; it was sickening. I never expected it either because I generally agree that the (1) media promotes fear, (2) gun control is a legitimate policy, and so on. But, his rhetoric was so bad in this movie; so offensive in many respects; that it almost makes me want to join the NRA. If F9/11 is anything like this, I hope I never find the time to watch it. It would be a shame to give this guy another two hours of my life.

The great irony of Moore's film is that he is doing the very thing he rails against in his documentary. He's feeding off people's fears; only he is feeding off their fears of the rich and the powerful; their fear of not having control over their own lives let alone the political process and international events; their fears that everything, everywhere is a conspiracy that threatens their life.

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Originally posted by Johann
P.S. Another confirmation that Bush will win in Nov: He was asked yesterday what the difference between Edwards and Cheney is.
He said: Cheney could be President. Is he one confident, arrogant Mofo or what?

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What's so arrogant about that, Johann? This just goes to show that anything Bush does is evil in your books. You've been had.

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Originally posted by pmw
Confident yes. But I suspect we could see a shift in Bush's VP choice if his numbers continue to drop...interesting. Cheney is an asshole, and a sick asshole. Not doing much for Bush's innocent/tough cowboy act... I think he could bring in old Colin Powell who might even say yes to the nomination if he thought it would pave his way to the White House... an interesting few months we have ahead of us, all culminating in the timely capture of Osama bin Laden. What a show it should be!!

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I think it is more likely that Condi Rice and Dick Cheney would swap posts. Powell has already said he's leaving the cabinet after this term is over and don't suspect that he would return. He's got little chance in 2008 against Giuliani, McCain, and/or Jeb Bush for the next Republican presidential nomination.

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Originally posted by anduril

I think it is more likely that Condi Rice and Dick Cheney would swap posts. Powell has already said he's leaving the cabinet after this term is over and don't suspect that he would return. He's got little chance in 2008 against Giuliani, McCain, and/or Jeb Bush for the next Republican presidential nomination.

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Good point, but they fed her to the wolves with the testimony thing. She's fodder for so much ridicule in the media that I'm not sure how she would do against two fresh faces. What about Mccain though? That would be interesting... Im decidedly with the Democrats in either case, but I am very interested in the currents and how they are ridden/stoked.
P

I'm talking to a ghost. anduril is a ghost. A right-wing nutjob of a ghost. You have a macabre hatred for Michael Moore. I'm wretching reading your comments.

Moore's just a guy from Flint Michigan who worked half his life at poverty level wages. He said recently "People complain about me living in a rich apartment in Manhattan, but when you live half your life making less than $19, 000 a year you don't care about money. It's THAT ingrained in you."

Irregardless of the "lies", of the "misinterpretation" that you ALLEGE (still haven't seen the movie, right?) the man is making a serious point: the president must be held accountable. And in this case the man must go. Indeed, the next few months will be very interesting. Edwards has thrown a huge wrench in everybody's plans. He's young enough to last long enough to become President one day. Even Hillary Clinton, in her cozy little niche, has come out to fight. Nobody's happy with Kerry's choice.

What's so arrogant about that? Oh, nothing. Just the fact that Bush hasn't batted an eye since the film premiered, that's all.
He's gritting his teeth. He's got contempt. Not a positive thing to dwell on when you're the top man in Washington...

I'm so happy anduril is placing his comments here for posterity.
Watch those blinders! The knowledge that I'm on the correct side with the right perspective is what counts.

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Originally posted by pmw


Good point, but they fed her to the wolves with the testimony thing. She's fodder for so much ridicule in the media that I'm not sure how she would do against two fresh faces. What about Mccain though? That would be interesting... Im decidedly with the Democrats in either case, but I am very interested in the currents and how they are ridden/stoked.
P

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Personally, I think it is unlikely that Bush will replace Cheney. Bush is very loyal to his friends and he's unlikely to dump Cheney, especially after Kerry choosing Edwards didn't produce the usual Veep bounce that one might expect. Bush is actually very comfortable right now in the polls, especially for an incumbent.

McCain is an unlikely choice, primarily because it would give McCain a boost against Jeb Bush in the 2008 nomination. It's also why Giuliani is unlikely. Condi, I think, held up pretty good and her numbers are strong. Plus a black woman VP... that's got power to pull Dems... no question.

Still, like I say, it's unlikely that Bush will drop Cheney.

I'm a peaceful guy.

I don't like this situation in Iraq.
Bush caused it. He gives many many reasons for it, but the fact remains that he did not have to attack. He was not justified.

So many people have suffered and died on both sides that there cannot be any "victory" here in any way shape or form. Correction: financially. There's victory Financially.

Bush is a businessman, not a politician. He's a manipulative, silverspoon-fed, arrogant, slimy piece of shit. He had a chance in the depressing aftermath of the attacks to become a real man for the history books.

What happened? See Michael Moore's film. He'll help you out.
Bush ain't talking. He's got his own rules:
-I don't testify
-A dictatorship would be easier...
-I'm a war president
-Bin Laden is a marginal figure
-We didn't find any weapons. But we knew he could make them....

And on and on and on. The man is a political disgrace.

With great power comes great responsibility. Where's Bush's responsibility? He has none. GOD is on his side- he answers to no one. He was a Yale Bonesman. He towers over all us "citizens".


Who was he speaking to when he spoke these timeless words?
"Some call you the elite. I call you my base"

I'm tired of reading anduril's hot air.
I rest Moore's powerful case.

Johann: Really, c'mon, you said you wanted to discuss the film but you are not again. I posted lines out of the friggin' script but only you can do is try and label me and insult me.

I don't hate Moore but Bowling for Columbine was a pathetic piece of work. Like I said, I had much to agree with him on going into the movie but by the end of it, his rhetoric was so over the top, his logic so fuzzy, his arguments so innane, that I literally started wondering about whether or not I should really share his views.

F9/11 seems to me much the same way... like I've said, I've seen a significant portion of the script and it's the same sort of deal. Consider the Senator in the movie who won't sign up his son for the draft... he had nephews fighting in that war and, in fact, several senators do have boys fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Or, consider the James Bath thing that Moore makes such a big deal out of... of course, the name was crossed out... whenever you request public records on your own behalf, the government blacks out any records that do not pertain to you in order to protect the privacy of the other individual. It's standard policy. Go order your military medical record, Johann... if anybody else from your unit is named in it I bet you, even here in Canada, the name will be blacked out. Flimsy, flimsy evidence all the way through... and then the abundance of close up shots on Bush et al.; the use of stock, 'off-the-record' footage juxtaposed with other comments in order to deliberately incite hatred... it's a B-rated movie stunt with no real merit. Give me stock footage of Moore 'off-the-record' and I'm sure I could make tonnes of people think the guy is an asshole first-class. It's cheap tricks like this throughout. Events are constantly decontextualized and recontextualized in ways that suits Moore's fancies. I actually really appreciate when I see a good counter-argument... in fact, I read an article the other day from Al Gore on MoveOn.org that I actually thought was well-done. I thrive on seeing good arguments put forward. In fact, my career is best on being able to read and appreciate multiple views and nothing impresses me more than seeing a point well-argued whether I agree with it or not. Moore doesn't make a good argument; it's incitement and character assassination and rhetoric. If this is the best you're going to throw out at me, Johann, I have no reason at all to see this movie.

I will not discuss the film with someone who hasn't seen it and has no intention to.

You've made your point clear. I've made mine. You could say you and I speak for "both sides" of the Iraq war.

Yeah, you sure did post lines from the friggin' script. Too bad you didn't read my reply: it doesn't matter what Moore's opinions are:
what is the core of what he's saying?

Hello? Anybody out there? If all you can do is call it character assassination and rhetoric, then you've got a helluva weak case, man.

You're not addressing Moore's complaints- you do not pass go- you go straight to "rhetoric".
Can anybody see through the thick fog anduril's been spraying around here?

God save me from your followers...

You haven't addressed Bush's claim that God ordained him to be President. You have no opinion on that?

Regardless of how well anybody debates you, you just parry with boring tripe.

I'm seriously through talking with you. This is like hitting your head on a brick wall...

Regarding Bush feeling that he was ordained by God to be President... I can certainly understand how an 'outsider' may regard such a statement with considerable annoyance to say the least. However, for me, I've got no problem with it. It is common Christianese, if you will. Many Christians, particularly those of the Fundamentalist ilk (but even more Evangelical moderates), will frequently use language like this because they feel that their vocations are a calling from God; it's not a God-complex or anything. Quite the contrary, it's actually a servant mentality. I feel the same way about being a professor. Bush feels that he was called by God to be President in this moment in history... considering that he is President right now, it is kind of hard to dispute--whether you like him or not--if you believe God superintends history... but it means no more than that and I don't find it offensive at all.

Johann: I'd love to have more to debate on but no one seems willing to throw it out there. Putting statements in bold caps doesn't make an argument. Dissin' me isn't an argument. Lamenting that I haven't seen the movie isn't an argument. Prove to me that I need to see the movie... that there is something there worth my attention... Or, argue on the issues. Or, discuss amongst yourselves if you want... I've indicated that I'm willing to step outside and just observe. I don't care...

You're frustrated because you haven't made a worthwhile point. You simply expect me to go along with your subjective opinions and go along with Moore's subjective opinions. Well, I don't work that way. I don't buy into something simply because people have opinions that I should. I buy into something because they've made the case for its importance. Moore is a crappy apologist for the left-wing cause; why won't anyone on this forum discuss F9/11 in an informative and insightful way? I don't care if your not responding to me. I will read anything anyone here has to write on the matter but not Knipp, not Oscar, not you, Johann, not PMW, not Raoul, not any of you advocates of the movies will do more than say: It was such a great movie and it's all true. Yadda, yadda, yadda. I'll stick to reading more informed commentary from the right and the left.

I'm a little surprised and a bit angry that my thread that started this whole conversation about 9/11 as film was mostly ignored and this thread was created. The creation of it was more as an emotional response to the more subjective political thread but it conveniently ignored the more focused issues that I have attempted to raise. I do agree that the political discussion of this film on this website has become too wide-ranging and has moved away from the basic premise of this website. This thread, therefore, is at least an attempt to bring some civility back to what otherwise might only drown into some black pool of political rhetoric that will serve no useful purpose in regards to films.

Great point tabuno.

Somebody needs to apologize. That word IGNORANCE seems to hang out on these threads a hell of a lot...

I apologize.
Because I helped in the creation of this thread.

Let's face it- the yo-yo president of the U.S.A. knows nothing. He is a dunce. He is a Fool.

The last living vestiges of the American Dream are on the line.
This is not the time to have a bogus rich kid in charge of the White House.

Which is, after all, our house. That is our headquarters- it is where the heart of America lives. So if the president acts giddy about other people's lives- if he wantonly and stupidly endorses mass murder as a logical plan to make sure we are stiil Number One- he is a Jackass by definition- a loud and meaningless animal with no functional intelligence and no balls.

To say this goofy child president is looking more and more like Nixon in the summer of 1974 would be a flagrant insult to Nixon.
Is it even vaguely possible that some Republican whore-beast of a false president could actually make Richard Nixon look like a Liberal?

Nixon crossed that line when he began murdering foreigners in the name of "family values"- and George W. Bush crossed it when he sneaked into office and began killing brown-skinned children in the name of Jesus and the American People.

We have become a Nazi Monster in the eyes of the whole world.
- a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that's how history will judge us....No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you.

Well, shit on that dumbness.

George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect inthis world.

We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today- and we will not vote for them again in 2002. Or 2004. Or ever.

Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George W. Bush?

They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammed Ali locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. They are the racists and hate mongers among us- they are the Ku Klux Klan.

I piss down the throats of these Nazis.

Just read through this new thread and am astonished at the number of times anduril has used my name in vain. Who's this "Knipp"guy he keeps talking about, I found myself wondering. Another one of his fantasies? No, I guess it's me, in some form. I must have gotten under his skin. But it wasn't me but Johann who first told him to buzz off; I just seconded the motion. A guy who hasn't seen a film starting threads discussing it "as a film" is kind of a harmless crank. I hope harmless, anyway. I wonder if anduril acquired all his information indirectly like his information about Fahrenheit 9/11. Kinda sad, a secondhand life. Three cheers to Johann for his spirited rejoinders. I haven't the patience.

Statistics: number of IMDb comments on The Day After Tomorrow: 595; Troy: 930; Fahrenheit 9/11: 934. Moore's movie is beating out the summer blockbusters in web browser interest.

One thing is sure, and that's that the electorate is way more politicized than it was before the last presidential elections. Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sign of that and a reason for it. For sure there are plenty of right wingers like anduril who are staying away from it, but a high proportion of the adult population is going to see the film. Six percent of all voters say they've seen it, and 38 percent say they are going to see it. That's close to half of all voters. Moreover 23 percent of viewers of the film are Bush voters, according to a poll (MCN Press Release http://www.moviecitynews.com/notepad...040708_pr.html). I strongly urge a look at this site--there's a lot more interesting information there about the demographics and electoral implications of Fahrenheit 9/11 viewings.

And there are a lot of other political documentaries out. People haven't forgotten Bowling for Columbine, which some think a better piece of work than Fahrenheit. And there's Control Room, Hunting the President, Hijacking Catastrophe (which we all ought to be seeing and discussing in relation to Moore's film--since it's another treatment, some think better, of the same material--I haven't seen it yet), and The Corporation (which I have seen and which is excellent -- and in which Michael Moore literally has the last word), just to name stuff currently showing.

Bush is losing some of his base--off the base (which is what Al Qaeda means, of course)--the disenchanted and bereaved military; that widow in Flint Michael Moore follows to Washington is not alone. Are the slow but steady drops in his approval ratings (not as big as daddy's at this stage but bad enough so his reelection is, historically, quite doubtful now) partly due to Michael Moore? I think he's played a small part in them. He's put the anti-Bush argument out there in highly visible, ironic, in-your-face form for all to see and digest. PMW is certainly right: there are going to be some desperate moves, and it's going to be something to watch.

But let's not just watch, friends. Let's get active. Let's do what we can to get out the vote.

I may have been misread. I didn't mean that I wanted to discuss Fahrenheit 9/11 strictly and exclusively as a film; that would be ridiculous, and impossible. I meant that any discussion based on Fahrenheit 9/11 should not drift off exclusively into politics and abandon sight of the film--which one of the most visible and noisy participants in these Moore threads has still not even seen. You cannot discuss Fahrenheit 9/11 without getting into the facts, and the politics, but you should not discuss the politics on FilmWurld without reference to the film. I don't come here to argue about George Bush, but I'm as excited and glad that this film was made and has so much public attention as anduril is, apparenlty, annoyed and dismayed. It's impossible not to be partisan here, and every contribution illustrates that, but that's no reason to stop dealing with the issues of documentary film, political film, and Michael Moore.

I saw Fahrenheit for the second time yesterday.

The film is brilliant. It deserved the Palm D'or without question.
I was paying strict attention this time- allow me to discuss it "as film". I'll indulge anduril...



There are two scenes that didn't hit me emotionally the first time.
I felt so sad when we see the reactions of the people in the streets of New York. There is a brief shot of an old man, sobbing.
We don't know who he is, but the look on his face is so heart-wrenching that you feel absolutely horrible. The people watching people jumping to their deaths- how can you forget these images.

Moore has our attention with this movie. If you have a shred of humanity in you, you cannot stand behind this "president".You cannot "side" with this man if you are a human being- it's that simple. He is a war criminal. George W. Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL. 300 firefighters died on Sept.11. 300. That's an army of firefighters- a battallion of trained, fit men. They bravely went into the towers to do their duty and were snuffed out.

You'd think that losing 300+ professional, VITAL men would be an irretreivable loss. Well, since that day Dubya has sent 1000+ trained military soldiers to their deaths. ONE THOUSAND. And counting. For what?! Oil?

Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil? Oil?

Sorry. slip of the keys there....


Hey anduril- you got a lotta nerve to stand behind Iraq's invasion.
You got balls to say this war was justified. You got titanium testicles and a heart of black coal if you think this war is about "Ousting Saddam".

Iraq has never in it's whole history as a country attacked the United States in any way. Saddam never fired one bullet over the Atlantic and killed a single American. He pointed his fingers, many times. But he never actually punched any Yankee in the face.
Never caused violence in America- not once.

And here comes Baby Bush. "He tried to kill my Dad". Saddam was priority Number One when he moved into the White House. Michael Moore's genius sequence where he edits the words "Saddam" and "Al-Queda" together ad nauseum is sheer brilliance. Al-Queda had absolutely NOTHING to do with Saddam Hussein. Zero. Zip. Fuck all.

When you see this film and realize what is going on, you feel a knot tighten in your stomach so hard and fast that you wanna puke. The corruption and deception is so sickeningly EVIL that you cannot remain un-political. Chris Knipp is right- people who were never politicized are getting political. I'm getting political! I'm getting excited about politics! Michael Moore is one inspirational American. He's The Man right now. And he's so righteous about it it just warms the soul....Almost makes me wish I was an American. (Almost!)

There are other scenes in the film that I didn't ruminate too much on but are just as sickening:

-Moore shows the American soldiers protecting the Halliburton workers who are there for the oil- the ones who feel completely protected while they drill. That soldier (who is one of the bravest I've ever seen) who says: (I'm paraphrasing) When you see a Halliburton employee making $8000 a month working 40 hours a week driving the same route every day while we're risking our lives out here...everybody knows what is going on....

-The convention for "Re-Building Iraq". What a stroke of genius that Moore put that footage in there! "When that oil starts flowing there will be lots of money. And whatever the cost, the government will pay you". Not to mention: "It's good for business, bad for the people...."

George W. Bush has made millions and millions and millions of dollars off the blood of his own people and the Iraqi people- The Poor. The only thing anduril has written that has any truth to it is when he said Bush attacked Iraq "because he could". That's the only remark from him that has even a shred of truth in it. Fact Jack. Because he could.

Only mushrooms grow in the dark, anduril.
Iraqi Freedom? Bwahahahahahah!!!!!
Keep dreaming, chachi

It's all about money, power and OIL my blind ex-friend.

How can you sleep soundly, with a clean conscience, when you support Fascism, Naziism and Imperialism?

You are one sad animal. Praise Jesus.

At Michael Moore's website he has an Esquire article written by Ron Reagan- yes, the son of "Ronnie":The case against Bush.

He lays it all out, baby. Bush IS evil, anduril. He IS a nazi fascist imperialist- just watch the quicktime clip Moore posted of the speech he gave just 4 days ago. Priceless. And the Pillsbury Doughboy, standing right beside his pal Georgy...

Been watching your beloved CNN lately anduril?

Lots of peace over there! Lots of happy Iraqis!

Chim Chim Chereee!!

I gotta employ some heavy sarcasm here (as right-wing as I can make it):

Yep, those Iraqis sure are doing the happy dance. The invasion of Iraq was the best decision America ever made as a nation. Bush is tough on terrorism- let's make sure he's re-elected folks. He's not finished over there- we must support the Great Texan of the New Millenium. He's our commander- we're just the space cadets.

He's riding the rockets- for freedom. How unpatriotic it would be to vote out a man whose base is the elite. We all aspire to be the elite. He's a role model for today and for the future. Between his stellar record as a businessman and a National Guard pilot we have heaven as a leader. Not to mention his belief in the Christ.
No nation should have a leader who doesn't believe in Hay-zoose.

Without God we are nothing. Bush has God, thus we do too. Jesus' divine hand guides every bomb and bullet that is fired out of every American weapon. Why? Because it's in the name of
FREEDOM. It's worth fighting for. Vote Bush in November or we're all going to hell.




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