Eve of Destruction

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Originally posted by anduril
Raoul: I'm not your librarian.

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Indeed. Nonetheless, you haven't come up with anything usefull, and neither has that blog as far as I can tell. I'm inviting you to pick some salient points from it and throw them up here for discussion. Unless, of course, you can't find anythng of merit in that dung heap, either.

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(anduril)
RE: Litigation. You'd think so, eh? But, why then are the political pundits able to publish volumes upon volumes of lies month by month. The fact is that Moore's movie will receive protection under the very same forces that come to work to protect political booksales and op-eds in this country.

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Yeah, no. It looks like you might have your country lines blurred a bit. In the US, publishing provable untruths about a person or corporation makes one liable for court action. If any of the Facts that Moore asserts in his movie were not the truth, lawyers would come out of cracks in the sidewalk like those flying ants do this time of year. No one's going to get away with saying something like : "The Bush Family has made 400 bil off of business with the Saudis" and get away with it by saying, "oh... that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to freedom of speech".

Any lawyers out there care to comment?

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(anduril)Oh, and add to that, very bad move for Bush and the White House administration to sue Moore in an election year; better to ignore it.

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Tough one to ignore, this movie. Although, i'm sure they're wishing they could. You raise an interesting point: Could they better benefit by waiting untill they loose the election (if they loose the election) and then sueing? They would argueably be entitled to more dammages if they can prove that he made them loose the election.

Raoul[SIZE=1]

Exactly, Raoul.

Let's see if Michael Moore is sued after Bush wins in Nov.

Seriously man, I get it. Like I said, the Republicans are all gathered in dark rooms, smoking cohibas, and conspiring world domination. They need to be stopped. It reminds me of the Jews in Europe shortly before WWII. Here's my proposal in twenty-three points:

1. We demand the unification of all Americans on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. We demand equality of rights and the abrogation of the World Trade Organization, the G8, and NAFTA.

3. We demand land and territory for the sustenance of our people.

4. Only a member of the Democratic Party can be a citizen. Consequently no Republican can be a citizen of the United States of America.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in the United States only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Republic, the state or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting capitalist economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens.

8. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

9. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:

10. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

11. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

12. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

13. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

14. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

15. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the Republic, state or municipality.

16. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

17. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest, primarily Republicans and the Religious Right.

18. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious American to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the Republic must be striven for by the school as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the Republic of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

19. The Republic is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

20. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

21. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of an American press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the English language be Democratic: b. Republican newspapers be required to have the express permission of the Republic to be published. They may not be printed in the English language: c. Republicans are forbidden by law any financial interest in Democratic publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Republic of the Republicans concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

22. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the Republic so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the American people. Our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

23. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Republic. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Republic and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Republic within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Can you give me that in lay-man's terms?

I'm just a regular joe.
I just like movies.

Don't hurt me....

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Originally posted by Raoul
Yeah, no. It looks like you might have your country lines blurred a bit. In the US, publishing provable untruths about a person or corporation makes one liable for court action. If any of the Facts that Moore asserts in his movie were not the truth, lawyers would come out of cracks in the sidewalk like those flying ants do this time of year. No one's going to get away with saying something like : "The Bush Family has made 400 bil off of business with the Saudis" and get away with it by saying, "oh... that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to freedom of speech".

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If I'm confused or blurring lines as you suggest, perhaps you could address the substance of my point. Is it your take that all the books in this section of Amazon.com are free from libel or slander. If you claim that they are, doesn't that point to how incredibly weak the legal standard of libel and slander is in the United States?

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Originally posted by Johann
Can you give me that in lay-man's terms?

I'm just a regular joe.
I just like movies.

Don't hurt me....

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Now, I'm confused. Who was the ignorant one again? If you can't appreciate the significance of what I posted then you've really got a horrible deficiency in your grasp of politics, history, and ideology, Johann.

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Originally posted by Raoul
Indeed. Nonetheless, you haven't come up with anything usefull, and neither has that blog as far as I can tell. I'm inviting you to pick some salient points from it and throw them up here for discussion. Unless, of course, you can't find anythng of merit in that dung heap, either.

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So, you've read it. Perhaps, you could give me some evidence for your position that it's a dung heap. Comment, if you will, on just a couple of the Fahrenheit Facts #1-15 at the site.

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Originally posted by anduril


If I'm confused or blurring lines as you suggest, perhaps you could address the substance of my point. Is it your take that all the books in this section of Amazon.com are free from libel or slander. If you claim that they are, doesn't that point to how incredibly weak the legal standard of libel and slander is in the United States?

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Well I'm no lawyer and my attorney was last seen en-route to Azatlan with a salt shaker half full of cocaine, but I'll do my best.

As near as I can tell, no. These books are not exempt from libel suits. We're talking about America here, you can sue anyone you want. If the judge finds that you have published information that is not true, and it damaged someone's rep, you pay up.

As for the Communist manifesto above, it's very clever. I dare say it's more inflamitory than a Michael Moore film.
It looks like you might have me all wrong: I endorse no major political party - democrat or republican. It's my position that, in all likelyhood, the democrats are just as evil or worse. Chances are that they're working towards the same goals.
Remember: No Senetor would sign the bill to have the Supreme Court's decision to appoint bush as president recinded. Many of those senetors were democrats. One of them was John Kerry.

What does this mean? I don't know. It could be that - as the good doctor has suggested many times before - we're doomed. I do know that if people started voting, payed attention to what was going on and made their voices heard on a large scale, chances are politicians would grow some accountability.[COLOR=skyblue][COLOR=skyblue][COLOR=skyblue]

Cazart!


My attorney was pouring beer on his chest to facilitate the tanning process...

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Originally posted by Raoul
Well I'm no lawyer and my attorney was last seen en-route to Azatlan with a salt shaker half full of cocaine, but I'll do my best.

As near as I can tell, no. These books are not exempt from libel suits. We're talking about America here, you can sue anyone you want. If the judge finds that you have published information that is not true, and it damaged someone's rep, you pay up.

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So why then haven't there been a virtual stream of suits and counter-suits with respect to these books? Are they all telling the truth? Why is this stuff getting published?

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Originally posted by Raoul
As for the Communist manifesto above, it's very clever. I dare say it's more inflamitory than a Michael Moore film.

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That's not the Communist manifesto but nice try. I'll give a "B" for effort, k?

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Originally posted by Raoul
It looks like you might have me all wrong: I endorse no major political party - democrat or republican. It's my position that, in all likelyhood, the democrats are just as evil or worse. Chances are that they're working towards the same goals.
Remember: No Senetor would sign the bill to have the Supreme Court's decision to appoint bush as president recinded. Many of those senetors were democrats. One of them was John Kerry.

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I love the world you live in. Can I join? Do I apply with the casting director of the X-Files or is it a direct application to Oliver Stone that gets me in? We can talk about it later in Roswell, okay? If I can shake my FBI tail, I should be there by sundown.

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Originally posted by anduril


So, you've read it. Perhaps, you could give me some evidence for your position that it's a dung heap. Comment, if you will, on just a couple of the Fahrenheit Facts #1-15 at the site.

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Funny, I asked you to do that and you didn't want to. Anyhow, here goes.

Fact 15: A happy and healthy Iraq.

Those kids flying kites and peolple getting married were actual events happening in Iraq the day before the sky started to fall. Yes, the bomb shown was blowing up the Iraqi ministry of defense, and it was nowhere near those civilians shown in Moore's 'file footage'. However, I somehow doubt that the same type of activities were going on that day. Massive Ordinance Air Blasts put a damper on wedding receptions and kite activities.

Moore also had footage of the civilian casualties that isn't commented on in that blog. Now who's omitting facts?

Nobody is claiming that Saddam was an alright guy. Shit, he was a monster. But it's never discussed how he came to power: Through US money and Interests. .source

Fahrenheit Fact no. 13: Air National Guard Service Misrepresented

It's interesting that Bush helping with a political campaign durring his absenteeism didn't come out untill long LONG after the questions arose, were ignored, arose again, were further ignored, 10k was offered to prove otherwise by that Doonsebury guy. All of a sudden: Hey, WAIT! I was campaining. Yeah. Campaining.

Why is this stuff getting published?

Same reason we're discussing this film: MONEY.

O.J.'s free because of it, there are Harry Potter films because of it, Bush is President because of it.

Another point about the National Guard service:

James Bath was Bush's co-pilot.
His name is blacked out on the white house-released document.
Michael Moore already had a copy of the original, and kindly tells us why the name was blacked out. Because people might find out that James Bath is in neck-deep with the Saudi's, placed there by Mr. George W. Bush. (his good buddy). Osama Bin-Laden is a Saudi, in case you didn't know, Ken.

See the film- it's all there on screen.

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Originally posted by anduril


So why then haven't there been a virtual stream of suits and counter-suits with respect to these books? Are they all telling the truth? Why is this stuff getting published?

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Gee, you think people might be telling the truth? Is this a foreign concept to you? It's not always a good idea to file a libel suit. In general people don't like lawyers and would rather spend their time doing nearly anything else than court. Also, if they lack the resources, they're kind of stuck. But you're a smart guy, I don't have to point that out to you.

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That's not the Communist manifesto but nice try. I'll give a "B" for effort, k?

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gee, teach. do i get a gold star too? That was a re hash of the main points of the soviet doctrine. Pleas explain how you think that's relevant in this forum.

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I love the world you live in. Can I join? Do I apply with the casting director of the X-Files or is it a direct application to Oliver Stone that gets me in? We can talk about it later in Roswell, okay? If I can shake my FBI tail, I should be there by sundown.

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grow up. your attitude is the type that hinders progressive change. Just because a guy doesn't endorse any major political parties, he's a conspiracy nut? Your stupidity is really starting to show, buddy.

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Originally posted by Raoul
Funny, I asked you to do that and you didn't want to. Anyhow, here goes.

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Yes, it is. Except I had already read the blog and so it did not profit me any to pull stuff out for you if you were simply going to ignore it anyways. Now, I know you've at least scanned parts of it. Besides, its Moore that has to prove his case; the burden of proof always lies with the prosecutor.

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Originally posted by Raoul
Fact 15: A happy and healthy Iraq.

Those kids flying kites and peolple getting married were actual events happening in Iraq the day before the sky started to fall. Yes, the bomb shown was blowing up the Iraqi ministry of defense, and it was nowhere near those civilians shown in Moore's 'file footage'. However, I somehow doubt that the same type of activities were going on that day. Massive Ordinance Air Blasts put a damper on wedding receptions and kite activities.

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So you think happy and healthy Iraq was just on hiatus for the day?

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Originally posted by Raoul
Moore also had footage of the civilian casualties that isn't commented on in that blog. Now who's omitting facts?

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They are omitting facts. Your point?

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Originally posted by Raoul
Nobody is claiming that Saddam was an alright guy. Shit, he was a monster. But it's never discussed how he came to power: Through US money and Interests. Source

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US money didn't bring Saddam to power; it kept him there. But, more to the point, doesn't this fact point to the American responsibility to fix what they had done? Also, if Saddam is as you concede a monster, should we have let him stay in power?

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Originally posted by Raoul
Fahrenheit Fact no. 13: Air National Guard Service Misrepresented

It's interesting that Bush helping with a political campaign durring his absenteeism didn't come out untill long LONG after the questions arose, were ignored, arose again, were further ignored, 10k was offered to prove otherwise by that Doonsebury guy. All of a sudden: Hey, WAIT! I was campaining. Yeah. Campaining.

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Striking rebuttal. Thank-you.

Perhaps you could comment on Fahrenheit Fact #14.