Foreign Favorites

Have you noticed how few top ten lists on this forum include more than one or two foreign films? It seems to me that every year there are fewer foreign films released in the U.S. What a shame. The practice seems to be that if a foreign film is very successful, American movie moguls will remake it with American box office favorites. A recent example is INSOMNIA. One of the biggest disappointments was a wonderful little French film released in 1987. LE GRAND CHEMIN [The Grand Highway] is a great French film about a young boy coming of age in a provincial country town, and his impact on a childless couple. For American consumption and box office appeal, Hollywood relocated the story to a small town on the American coast. Melanie Griffith and Don Johnson (while they were married to each other) were cast in the remake called PARADISE. The remake was not a bad film, but it completely lost the magic of the original. Anyway, here’s a list of foreign films:
My Favorite Foreign Films:
1. THE SEVEN SAMURAI -- Japan
2. CARMEN (Saura) -- Spain
3. J U-DOU -- China
4. LE GRAND CHEMIN -- France
5. RUN LOLA RUN -- Germany
6. AU REVOIR, LES ENFANTS -- France
7. JEAN de FLORETTE & MANON OF THE SPRING -- France
8. THREE COLORS: BLUE, WHITE, & RED -- France/Poland
9. LE GRAND ILLUSION -- France
10. THE BICYCLE THIEF -- Italy
While thinking of foreign films, it seems clear that there is a great deal of appreciation for Kurosawa here. I have been able to see most of them, including AFTER THE RAIN, which was produced posthumously by his son, and included Toshiro Mifune’s son in a central role. There is amazing versatility here. Here’s my top ten list of Kurosawa films:
My Favorite Kurosawa Films:
1. THE SEVEN SAMURAI -- 1954
2. Akira Kurosawa’s DREAMS -- 1990
3. YOJIMBO -- 1961
4. KAGEMUSHA -- 1980
5. RAN -- 1985
6. RASHOMON -- 1950
7. HIDDEN FORTRESS -- 1958
8. IKIRU -- 1952
9. THRONE OF BLOOD -- 1957
10. RED BEARD -- 1965

Ah, foreign films. I've seen over a thousand, I estimate. Being biased toward Kurosawa is hardly a bad thing. I think I've seen all of his films- 30 I think. While Dreams is my favorite, Red Beard really impressed me. I don't know if it was because Mifune gave his last performance, or what, but that one was REALLY powerful. (And I hear Criterion is giving it the "treatment")
Objectively, I think Rashomon is his masterpiece.

I think it's a travesty that so many films go unseen because of ignorance. I can't count how many times I've recommended a flick to someone and they said:

1. That's got subtitles. I hate subtitled movies. 2. Black and white? Too old!
3. I can't concentrate listening to a foreign language- yes someone actually said this.

and I'm the only one in my circle who watches silents fairly regularly. You can lead a horse...

Hi Johann and docraven...I'm afraid that the audience for subtitled films is limited because reading comprehension at high school level is required.Also, our cultural reach and sheer size makes it easy to resist what is foreign. Critic Jonathan Rosenbaum also blames the poor marketing and distribution of foreign films in the U.S. Notice Disney releasing Spirited Away in too few theaters and without TV spots. Notice how only the feel good, funny and/or sexy f. films are widely shown.

mmm best ever...It seems that most of the films on folks' lists are the ones available on DVD since repertory theatres disappeared . somewhere in the 80s. I love Kurosawa-my faves:Rashomon+Kagemusha-but nobody mentions Mizoguchi and Ozu. I probably prefer Ugetsu and Life of Oharu, Tokyo Story and Floating Weeds, than any of Kurosawa. There are hundreds of great films. My very favorites are those whose images refuse to leave my brain and those whose emotional impact refuses to dim. Docraven mentioned 3:Illusion,Bicycle,Au revoir. Ophuls'Earrings of Madame de...,Herzog's Aguirre. Saura's Cria and Erice's Spirit of the Beehive are best about childhood. Renoir may be my fave director-Rules of the Game is as accomplished as Illusion and Boudu saved from drowning +French Cancan make me giddy. Passion of Joan of Arc(Dreyer) is devastating. Films that may pass the test of time:Kieslowski's 3 Colors and The Decalogue, Kar-Wai's Mood and Ashes of Time, Hou-Hsien's The Puppetmaster, Stanley Kwan's Actress AKA Center Stage, Angelopoulos' Landscape in the Mist(warning:slow), Van Dormael's Toto the hero, Von Trier's Breaking the Waves, and Before the Rain.
Docraven:have u seen Shoeshine and My life as a Dog?
Johann:fave silents? which do u recommend on DVD?
Goal:to catch up on Dreyer and Tarkovsky.

Greetings oscar jubis! So true about Ozu & Mizoguchi. The way things seem, it's like people are only aware of one Japanese filmmaker.

I loved Sansho the Bailiff. btw, have you seen Fires on the Plain? A different movie, but very compelling. Funny you mention Saura. I just watched Blood Wedding- amazing. I'll have to see his other stuff. I immediately liked his style. And I treat The Earrings of Madame De like a silent film (Was Napoleon right when he said..)
The camera work in that film is probably the best I've ever seen. Seriously. Ophuls' DP must have the midas touch.
And, what can you say about Renoir? The Rules of the Game is a landmark, Grand Illusion literally DEFINES greatness in cinema, and considering his pedigree, by all accounts he qualifies as the premiere director. Hell, even Orson Welles called Renoir the greatest director of all-time.

As for silents on DVD, there's not a whole lot on the shelves now, but I know that will change as time goes on. Stroheim's Foolish Wives has been released restored, I have the "German Horror" box set (Golem, The Cabinet of Dr, Caligari, Nosferatu) and 2 sets of Keaton & Chaplin films. They are on fairly heavy rotation in my crib (ha)

Best foriegn films for different reasons

Hard Boiled (John Woo) - It may not be a classic but I think it is an action masterpiece!

Seven Samaurai (Akira Kurosawa) - A western masterpiece remade Hollywood styleseveral times

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon (Ang Lee) - Beautiful cinematography and a superb emotional storyline.

Das Boot (Wolfgang Peterson) - Great German submarine flick. Nerve-wracking and thrilling.

Nikita (Luc Besson) - Great French thriller that paved theway for Leon.

The Virgin Spring (Ingmar Bergman) - Its a while since I'veseen it but it remaines beautiful yet haunting.

I actually have 7 foreign films in my top 10, namely

Reservoir Dogs,Raising Arizona,It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad World,2001:A Space Odyssey,Dial M For Murder,Casablanca,Trainspotting,

However, by foreign, I think you mean non American, don't you - or you may even mean non English speaking.

What is the definition of a foreign film?

Realistically, I think it means simply Non english speaking. Is this right?

Russ: Of course, if we talked about foreign films as being anything produced in another country, the category would be different in England, Canada, Brazil, etc. So most Americans, I think, consider foreign films to be films made in some language other than English. Otherwise, I would have put an Australian film on my list -- John Duigan's "Flirting."

The language thing can be confining, too. Deepa Mehta's "Fire" is in English, but was filmed in India and purports being about middle class Indian life. She was born in India but became a Canadian as an adult. But aside from a few problems like that, foreign language is the determining factor.

American film awards generally have a category for Best Picture in a Foreign Language.

My experience has been that the American audience as a whole is quite content with English language films. Too bad. From the people I met on both my visits to Canberra (a gem of a city) my impression is that Australians are a bit less provincial. What do you think?

I plan to rent Fires on the Plain and Foolish Wives soon. I think watching silents helps develop observation skills. Just saw What time is it there? from Taiwan which felt like a silent given how rarely characters interacted verbally. So Golem is finally available...don't know much about it...Nosferatu and Caligari are immortal.
Recommended for Gregster: Yimou's Ju-dou and Clouzot's The Wages of Fear.

Docraven

Dunno if Americans are provincial or not. Trouble is, I'm pretty provincial myself. I know a few Americans through work, and the ones I know strike me as good humoured intelligent folks (seriously).

I guess I was being abit trite about the foreign films - although i knw the Australian Film Awards always give a proze to the best foreign (ie non Australian) film - normally some huge budget American performance - ironically.

I think the last truly foreign film I saw was Run Lola Run, which I thought was pretty good.

Russ:

If you liked RUN LOLA, RUN, I suggest you check out THE PRINCESS AND THE WARRIOR -- same director and lead actress. Another excellent recent foreign film you might like is AMELIE. Like RUN LOLA, RUN, it is a one of a kind (unique in quite a different way).

The reason I looked at Australians as being more aware of the rest of the world than Americans is that it seemed like everyone I met down there had travelled abroad not just once, but several times. I know, since much of Canberra is white collar, that may not be typical. I really enjoyed the National Film Museum there.

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Originally posted by oscar jubis
Docraven:have u seen Shoeshine and My life as a Dog?

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Yes. The DeSica film is excellent, and I know many people really liked My Life as a Dog, including many people who don't see many foreign films. It did not appeal to me, but I suspect I'm in the minority.

The films you mention are all good films. You mention Saura's Cria and Erice's Spirit of the Beehive, both wonderful films that I've seen both on the big screen and on TV. Saura is one of my favorite directors, but many of his films are not available. His most recent really good film is Tango. Carmen, which I think is stunning and quite memorable (The flamenco interpretation of the tobacco facory sequence is mesmerizing.), is very difficult to find since it is out of print. It was part of a great flamenco trilogy. The first, Blood Wedding, was based on Lorca's play. The last one, El Amor Brujo, was based on a major Spanish prose work. All three are currently hard to find. I hope that changes.

Another Spanish film that deals with a child is Butterfly (La Lengua de las mariposas,1999). Have you seen the Iranian film, Children of Heaven?

I like the Japanese films you mention. Have you seen Kobayashi's epic trilogy, The Human Condition? I believe it is available on DVD.

Renoir's works are amazing. I agree about Rules of the Game, but prefer Grand Illusion as more significant and with a much broader appeal. Another favorite is The Crime of Monsieur Lange.

I suspect we could go on and on. There's Mizoguchi, Bergman, and Bunuel for example.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by docraven
[B]. Saura is one of my favorite directors, but many of his films are not available.
Absolutely right. His THE HUNT was voted best Spanish film ever by Spanish critics but few have seen it here. COUSIN ANGELICA won at Cannes and was never released. Available: AY CARMELA! and GOYA, both recommended-although some found Goya "slow". The writer of these, as well as BELLE EPOQUE and Cuerda's BUTTERFLY , is the genius Mr. Rafael Azcona.
I've seen Majidi's CHILDREN OF HEAVEN and COLOR OF PARADISE but not BARAN or FATHER(available cheap on DVD from Asia).
Thanx Docraven for THE HUMAN CONDITION, which I knew nothing about. Having just been blown away by the WW II anime The GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES, I am particularly interested in the period from the Japanese point of view. I hope I can rent it somewhere.
FLIRTING is fine, but have you seen Duigan's LAWN DOGS? The way Duigan toys with our paranoic expectations about the relationship between a 10 year-old middle-class girl and a working class man is brilliant. The scene in which they compare wounds is both tense and tender. Few seem to have seen it.

Well docraven, I didn't find "My Life as a Dog" to be that great either, so don't feel bad!

Yes, Saura's films are difficult to locate. It appears Blood Wedding is the only title of his in my city..Just like Stan Brakhage's stuff- hard to track down without paying exorbitant rates....Also,

I'm curious what people here think of Peter Greenaway. The man makes my jaw drop with every new film. He has slowly gotten under my skin to the point where I'm spending a small fortune on materials relating to his art. Dare I say that he is one of the most important "image-makers" in the history of cinema?

Oh yeah, and The Wages of Fear is incredible. If you haven't seen this hulking nail-biter, RENT IT TONIGHT. The tension on screen should drive you starkers...

re:Greenaway
His films can only be properly appreciated in a theatre because he crams the frame with visual info.
I like his films more the second or third viewing.
"The Cook,the thief..." is his better known film. That fluid camera gliding inside the restaurant...back and forth.
His masterpiece: PROSPERO'S BOOKS.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oscar jubis
[B]

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Originally posted by docraven
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Thanx Docraven for THE HUMAN CONDITION … I am particularly interested in the period from the Japanese point of view. I hope I can rent it somewhere.

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THE HUMAN CONDITION, as you probably know by now, is an epic trilogy that is over 9 1/2 hours long in total. I rented it from Netflix, and they are still listing it. It reminds me in overall tone of FIRES ON THE PLAINS and THE BURMESE HARP. The central actor is Tatsuya Nakadai, who was in many ways a competitor of Toshiro Mifune (and the lead actor in Kurosawa's KAGEMUSHA and RAN).

I'm glad you mentioned COUSIN ANGELICA. I loved the film and have been trying to find it for about the last 15 years.

I have not seen LAWN DOGS, but will try to find it.

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Originally posted by Johann
I'm curious what people here think of Peter Greenaway. The man makes my jaw drop with every new film.

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I like Greenaway's audacious approach to film. On Easter Sunday back in 1990 my wife and I indulged in a huge brunch, then decided to check out a film at an art house in Kansas City. We knew nothing about Greenaway, but the title was enticing. So we saw THE COOK, THE THIEF, HIS WIFE, AND HER LOVER. That has to be the most bizarre Easter we ever spent. Who can forget the tracking camera, the castrata dishwasher, the white bathroom, and especially the final meal.

I also like PROSPERO'S books. Where else could you see John Gielgud in the buff? Thank God, nowhere!

Greenaway says that his "films have no sell-by date"- meaning they stand outside of time. I buy into that fully. Every time I see one of his movies I get something new out of it. Usually by the fourth viewing I've qualified the whole thing a masterpiece. If I was an actor, I would be moving mountains to be in one of his pictures.

He doesn't appeal to mainstream audiences at all, and at first glance you may be bowled over by seemingly unending pretention. Don't be fooled! Peter is up to something very profound. Like Kubrick, he has a singular vision, and with near-perfect filmmaking/media manipulation he creates films that are by turns fascinating and disturbing.
Nobody has a style like Greenaway, and I don't think anybody can emulate him, either.
I was very happy to hear Vincent Gallo is in his next film. (Buffalo 66 is one of my favorite films- killer photography)

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Originally posted by Johann
Yes, Saura's films are difficult to locate. It appears Blood Wedding is the only title of his in my city…

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It's interesting that some films so readily available in the U.S. aren't available in Canada … and vice-versa. I have been able to buy a number of videos and DVDs from Canadian eBay sources when they were not sold in the regular U.S. markets. However, I would think, besides the two films mentioned by oscar jubis (AY, CARMELA and GOYA IN BORDEAU) you might be able to find TANGO. TANGO is a really imaginative work that Saura made in Argentina -- wonderful concept, stunning cinematography, powerful, but complex story.

I was able to get BLOOD WEDDING on laserdisc through eBay. Later I saw a chance to get the entire trilogy on VHS, so I bid and won. However, what I got was clearly duped. The copies were good, but the seller soon disappeared. CARMEN is the best of the three, and well worth buying even at higher prices. If you watch eBay auctions, you may be able to get a copy without taking out a bank loan. It's worth checking the seller's feedback.

"Come and See" was the most powerful anti-war film I have ever seen in any language.

Most of Tarkovsky's and Eisenstien's films are worthwhile. I love "Alexander Nevsky" with the Prokofiev score.

Bunuel: "Death in the Garden" "The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie" "The Phantom of Liberty" "Belle de Jour"

What I have seen of Fellini is great, but I have yet to delve too deeply.

No doubt about it, Russia has given us some amazing movies. Eisenstein's Nevsky is bombastic.
Kubrick said Eisenstein's films are all style & no content (with wooden actors), while Chaplin's films are all content and no style. I don't know if I agree with that.
Part of what gives Sergei's movies their power IS the stiff players. And when you consider how much he loved Disney, the films seem that much more poetic. Pudovkin (the first pontiff of editing)is the flip side- he's got a documentary feel with real emotion... Dovzhenko is another innovator who should be getting more notice. Anyone see "Earth"?

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Originally posted by docraven
You mention Saura's Cria and Erice's Spirit of the Beehive, both wonderful films that I've seen both on the big screen and on TV. Saura is one of my favorite directors, but many of his films are not available.

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I'd like to call your attention to Carlos Saura's BUNUEL AND KING SOLOMON'S TABLE, which I just rented on vhs(eng. subs). Luis Bunuel, near death, is doing pre-production on his final film: Bunuel, Salvador Dali and poet Garcia Lorca meet in Toledo in the 30s to search for a mythical object that confers upon its owner the power to look into the past and into the future. A highly entertaining tale that cleverly incorporates the artistic output of these three masters.

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Originally posted by oscar jubis
I'd like to call your attention to Carlos Saura's BUNUEL AND KING SOLOMON'S …

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Thanks for the reference … and for your assessment. According to the imdb this has not yet been released in the U.S. I'll be waiting for that, as I'd far rather see it on the big screen in the dark.

We don't get many foreign films here unless they grab a lot of attention. So I've been trying to find it on video, but have been unable to find any information on a commercial VHS or DVD. Do you have any idea who put it out? Is this possibly a Canadian edition?

I read Chris Knipp's review of TALK TO HER, and then talked with a local film house about booking. They are interested in bringing the Almodovar film.

Are you familiar with Lorca? Have you seen any of his stage plays?

I assumed I rented an American release of Saura's Bunuel because of the nice english subs. Turns out, video store owner bought a PAL dvd from Spain(released with eng. subs there) and transfered it to NTSC vhs. I hope it gets released here. He did same with TALK TO HER, further evidence of Almodovar at the peak of his powers. It just destroyed the competition at the European Academy awards last week. I'm glad you'll get to see it the way it was meant to be seen. Cinematographer Aguirresarobe(The Others, All about my mother) is a key collaborator.
I saw a theatre production of Lorca's La Casa de Bernarda Alba in spanish and Saura's adaptation of Blood Wedding. I have not read his poetry though.

>The practice seems to be that if a foreign film is very successful, American movie moguls will remake it with American box office favorites.

And unfortunately they almost always give it the Soderberg treatment (totally dumb it down and hip it up for mass appeal).

>The remake was not a bad film, but it completely lost the magic of the original.

More often they seem in the vein of the Breathless or Diaboliques remake, bad films that not only lose the magic of the original but don't even seem to understand the film they are remaking or why anyone wanted to see it in the first place.

>Objectively, I think Rashomon is his masterpiece.

It should be a great film, but the message is just too simplistic. It seems out to prove everyone doesn't tell the truth, duh, and only concludes with everyone lies.

>That's got subtitles. I hate subtitled movies

My parents crack me up. Neither of them will watch a subtitled movie because then you have to read it, but they won't watch anything but sports without closed captioning so they don't miss any of the lines.

>Critic Jonathan Rosenbaum also blames the poor marketing and distribution of foreign films in the U.S.

The amount of money spent promoting the films generally goes hand in hand with the reciepts because the media is too willing to take money and celeb guests for bestowing false hype and importance and the audience is sucker enough to buy into the you aren't cool unless you've seen this movie bit. Most of the foreign films have get little to no advertising budget (maybe if it's a wider distribution a couple spots will be purchased on Bravo, which seems to get worse by the day) and only play in a few theatres, so they are doomed to make next to nothing theatrically unless they get amazing word of mouth and perform so well in their few theatres that others decide they might be able to make some money off this film.

>It seems that most of the films on folks' lists are the ones available on DVD since repertory theatres disappeared . somewhere in the 80s.

Here are some great ones that aren't on DVD (at least R1)
La Ceremonie
Un coeur en Hiver
Double Vie de Véronique, La (The Double Life of Veronique)
Hitlerjunge Salomon (Europa Europa)
Monsieur Hire
Ete meurtrier, L' (One Deadly Summer)
Maman et la putain, La (The Mother and the Whore)
Les Biches
Ivanovo Detstvo (Ivan's Childhood)
Noz w wodzie (Knife in the Water)
Jeux interdits (Forbidden Games)
Umberto D
Stromboli
Paisa (Paisan)
Napoleon

>Passion of Joan of Arc(Dreyer) is devastating

I prefer Dreyer's Vampyr & Day of Wrath because they are far less clear cut. Joan has better imagery than Wrath, but Dreyer's understanding of the persecution is far greater and more multifaceted. In Joan he basically says she spiritual they dumb, but in Wrath he doesn't settle for an easiliy interpretted situation or simple notions of good and evil. It's not so much about right and wrong, but about all the characters having their reasons for acting as they do. It's much more terrifying when you can understand why characters could or do act in negative/selfish ways than just seeing a faceless mass torment an angel.

>Van Dormael's Toto the hero

I don't remember hearing much good about this film, but unlike the mediocre unoriginal predictable sugar coated Amelie which I heard only good things about, I was really impressed by it's originality, verve, and narrative structure. I thought the end was kinda lacking though. Leolo is a great film that is somewhat similar to this one IMO.

>The way things seem, it's like people are only aware of one Japanese filmmaker

I'm beginning to wonder if the average 12-year-old even knows other countries make films.

>Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon (Ang Lee) - Beautiful cinematography and a superb emotional storyline.

This is a good film, but it just seems so overrated like people are under the delusion it's the first martial arts fantasy film or something equally ludicrous. Woo-ping is an amazing choreographer, but other than his work and the cinematography I find this rather lacking. Lee's films always get these reviews like they are so emotional and telling and I just find them to be closer to flat and empty. I think Woo-ping's Twin Warriors is better, it just kills Crouching Tiger in the crazy fight scenes. As far as a Crouching Tiger type film goes, I prefer the Bride with White Hair films because they are more artistic and tell a deeper more emotional story.

>If you liked RUN LOLA, RUN, I suggest you check out THE PRINCESS AND THE WARRIOR -- same director and lead actress.

I prefer Tykwer's Winter Sleepers. It's so beatifully photographed that I can forgive it's problems with character development and direction. The only thing is the film shares some similarity with Egoyan's great Sweet Hereafter and it generally doesn't match up well to it. Medem's Lovers of the Artic Circle is another good one that goes overboard when it comes to chance deciding everyone's fate.

>I'm curious what people here think of Peter Greenaway. The man makes my jaw drop with every new film. He has slowly gotten under my skin to the point where I'm spending a small fortune on materials relating to his art. Dare I say that he is one of the most important "image-makers" in the history of cinema?

Anyone that always takes chances, pushes the envelope, and doesn't require to be liked is likely to be worth watching, but Greenaway's films are about the most interesting contradictions out there. The thing is there's less and less people like Greenaway around because the ratings board is totally clueless and the distributors (outside of some minor labels) are afraid of offending anyone (which is why we never saw Baby of Macon). It's bad enough that the foreign films don't get a fair shake, if any at all, but hell Abel Ferrara can't even get his last 3 films into US theatres.

Mike
Raging Bull Movie Reviews

Sorry, In my opinion Greenaway is a pretentious hack. It's the old story of making films for the audience (since after all movies are viewed by others) vs. making a movie for yourself. In any other artistic medium the artist hopes for a positive response from his audience. I have never understood why it was acceptable for far too many "art house directors" to make unwatchable pretentious garbage and pass it off as film. By that standard, Tom Green's "Freddie Got Fingered" is a masterpiece. Greenaway elevates himself above Green only by keeping a straight face .

>>the mediocre unoriginal predictable sugar coated Amelie<<

I thought Amelie was good. A film need not be a negative, depressing drama about the suffering of the human condition to be a good film.

My favorite films are usually by directors whose primary concern is to adhere to a personal vision. They create images based on subjective aesthetic principles. Films calculated to satisfy an audience are often entertaining and nothing more. I value films that take stabs at greatness and strive for originality, even when they fail. Greenaway's art direction and cinematography are consistent sources of pleasure. I agree that Amelie is a good film. The amount of attention and praise bestowed upon it was undeserved though. Amelie is an entertaining,superbly edited feel-gooder predicated on romanticizing a Paris that no longer exists. A perfect introduction to European film for the novice and reluctant. I just wish CODE UNKNOWN or THE DREAMLIFE OF ANGELS or LA PROMESSE had had half of Amelie's advertising budget.

"RASHOMON seems out to prove everyone doesn't tell the truth, duh, and only concludes with everyone lies." (Raging Bull)
Your statement implies that cinema deserves to be taken seriously. What a film says or means is one of the important questions. The answers will be subjective and varied. I propose that RASHOMON has two primary ideas.
The portion of reality we actually perceive is "filtered" through memory, cognition, language, personality, etc. Of course we lie to others, and to ourselves. What Kurosawa shows is that we cannot avoid "lies" or "untruths" because Truth is beyond our grasp and ability. When Priest says "I have seen hundreds die like animals but this is terrible" he is referring to this uncertainty, this inherent "ignorance". The legal and theological implications are obvious.
There is a second event open to interpretation in Rashomon: the motivation of the person who abandons a baby. The film proposes that human suffering, which is a given, can only be abated through love and sacrifice. The wood dealer decides to adopt the baby, he walks away from Rashomon gate, baby in arms, looking up, a slight but honest smile on his face.End.

Thanks R.B. for your insights, particularly the detailed, thoughtful analysis of MONSIEUR HIRE.

Steve! You've broken my heart!

I understand what you're saying completely about Greenaway. But if I may, I'll try to explain why he ain't a hack. (Prtentious is another story-a newcomer to his films will almost instinctively believe this- I certainly did)

I've read 5 of his screenplays as well as the university texts "Being Naked Playing Dead" and "Museums and Moving Images". From this, I learned that he has very specific aims with the films he makes. He is bored with modern cinema, and he does NOT set out to make films for himself (another thing that's difficult for me to try to explain) I'll give it a stab all in point form.

-almost all of Greenaway's influence can be traced to his education in painting and the films Last Year at Marienbad and The Seventh Seal. He also feels that the greatest filmmaker ever is Eisenstein.

-He is almost pathologically obsessed with lists, maps, organizing schemes, logic-based theories, and numbers. His filmography displays this in abundance.

-His interviews read like university lectures. (Ebert was in awe when he met/talked to him) they are as entertaining as his films to me- He goes off on huge tangents about everything from darwin to Lynch's Blue Velvet.


-He made a short film called "revolution" in the 60's showing riots that were set to The Beatles' song "Revolution". To call him "unhip" would be wrong...

-All I can say to those who "can't watch" a Greenaway is "Look CLOSER" a la American Beauty.

I have tried and tried. I have seen all his stuff (except "The Draughtman's Contract") I just don't care for his work. I would agree with him that Eisenstien was great (for his era) and quite influential but all time? I would have to give the nod to Kurosawa or David Lean.

>>He is almost pathologically obsessed with lists, maps, organizing schemes, logic-based theories, and numbers. His filmography displays this in abundance.<<

Interesting from a biographic point of view, but hardly conducive to storytelling which is after all what movies are about.

>> (Ebert was in awe when he met/talked to him)<<

Ebert wrote "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" and listed "Babe II; Pig in the City" on his top ten list for 1998 so impressing him isn't going to cut it!

>>-All I can say to those who "can't watch" a Greenaway is "Look CLOSER" a la American Beauty.<<

Even under the closest scrutiny I find Greenaway's film to be overdone, pretentious and long-winded. I'll admit his compositions are usually exceptional.

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Originally posted by stevetseitz
storytelling which is after all what movies are about.

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"I want to try to make a kind of film that doesn't carry the idea of a story like a novel. In my opinion, film has to be freed from literary moments. Literature is literature and that's okay, but film is not film yet. It is still a mixture of different arts, and generally has a story, and that is a mistake."
R.W. Fassbinder

Greenaway films are often lacking in drama, with shallow, perverse characters in grotesque situations. At his best though, in collaboration with Sacha Vierny, he's taken me closer to that "pure cinema" R.W. was talking about. On a sad note, Greenaway will never find a cinematographer like Vierny(R.I.P. 2001), a veteran of Resnais and Bunuel films, among others.

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Ebert wrote "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" and listed "Babe II; Pig in the City" on his top ten list for 1998 so impressing him isn't going to cut it!

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I'll give you that one. Sometimes Ebert can be a little young in the head...

Finally someone who disagrees with me and doesn't lose his mind. I won't mention Greenaway in your presence again dear sir.

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On a sad note, Greenaway will never find a cinematographer like Vierny(R.I.P. 2001), a veteran of Resnais and Bunuel films, among others.

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Amen on that oscar jubis. I nearly choked on my beer while watching the oscars last year during the tribute to those who passed. I couldn't believe Peter lost his eyes.

Sacha said to Greenaway one day on set:

"Je ne pas un realisiteur; je c'est un Greenaway"

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Originally posted by stevetseitz
Ebert wrote "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" and listed "Babe II; Pig in the City" on his top ten list for 1998 so impressing him isn't going to cut it!

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I didn’t remember Ebert’s list for that year, but I do remember that BABE II:PIG IN THE CITY was number one on Gene Siskel’s list, and I tended to like his judgement more than Ebert’s. This was, of course, the year Siskel died. I looked it up on Ebert’s site and do note that he gave the film four stars. I suspect we all have our little admiration peculiarities that make our friends wonder. Anyway, Steve’s point is well taken.

As far as Greenaway is concerned, I enjoyed THE COOK, THE THIEF, HIS WIFE, AND HER LOVER on the big screen—less so when watching from my laserdisc copy. Now that was a creative, fascinating piece—with the panning of the camera from the street, to the kitchen, and to the dining room, and with those wonderful color switches when moving in and out of the bathroom—all like some giant stage set, complete with a singing castrata diswasher. On the other hand, for me PROSPERO’S BOOKS seemed incredibly pretentious. I kept sitting there wondering what it was that was supposed to be fascinating—a mass of unshapley bodies accompanied by Shakespeare’s poetry gets old after awhile. And I love the bard in many kinds of interpretation. What makes him great is the vast variety of ways each play can be done.

>>"I want to try to make a kind of film that doesn't carry the idea of a story like a novel. In my opinion, film has to be freed from literary moments. Literature is literature and that's okay, but film is not film yet. It is still a mixture of different arts, and generally has a story, and that is a mistake."
R.W. Fassbinder<<


There are many ways to tell a story, a novel is only one of them. I think Fassbinder, who eschewed common cinematic tools opting for static shots and lengthy conversation, is saying he doesn't like ponderous melodrama. "Akira Kurosawa's Dreams" certainly wasn't a "novel" (it was more like a cinematic poem) but it was still basic human story-telling. "Pure cinema" (cinema for it's own sake) is rare and almost strictly non-commercial. It seems that very few films we discuss here are NOT traditional narrative film. I wonder if we could come up with an example from our various top ten lists that isn't a narrative film?

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[i]Originally posted by docraven for me PROSPERO’S BOOKS seemed incredibly pretentious. I kept sitting there wondering what it was that was supposed to be fascinating—a mass of unshapley bodies accompanied by Shakespeare’s poetry gets old after awhile. And I love the bard in many kinds of interpretation.

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I think what fascinates me so much about Greenaway is his total inscrutable nature. Esoteric to almost a fault, I relish his films because they are so difficult to penetrate. You have to prepare for a Greenaway. You can't just pop some microwave popcorn, fix yourself a coca-cola and "throw on" 8 1/2 Women. You have to be analytical in mindset- I usually do a New York Times crossword to get me in the proper "mood".

And Steve, seeing "The Draughtsman's Contract" WILL NOT change your mind. Petrified actors in what appears to be the ultimate excercise in boredom... I love it.

As for Shakespeare, many kinds of interpretation is right, Doc. (As you may know I'm kind of partial to Titus.) The Kevin Kline/Michelle Pfieffer version of a Midsummer's Night Dream was an enjoyable rental.

Speaking of Foreign favorites- anybody see LUMIERE & COMPANY?
40 filmmakers try to make a 50 second film with the first motion picture camera invented by the Lumiere brothers. (Greenaway did one!) The camera is a wooden box with a hand crank to advance the film. David Lynch will blow you away with his 50 second barn-burner.

My appreciation of a given film changes over the years. Narrative pleasures seem to recede while images-for-their-own-sake hold their value. That is why revelation of a plot twist is called a "spoiler". Images don't seem to spoil easily. I hail THE THIRD MAN as much as you do, but primarily due to b&w scenes of empty post-war Vienna at night and harshly lit faces suddenly appearing in dark alleys. I don't love plot-dependent films like LONE STAR, L.A. CONFIDENTIAL and THE USUAL SUSPECTS as much as after first viewing. As far as narrative, I prefer films that appear incomplete, able to absorb several interpretations, have a vague ending, or violate narrative conventions. On the other hand, I am deeply grateful to narrative-dependent films that illuminate a dark corner of the human experience or say something I think is important. That's why RABBIT-PROOF FENCE and BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE are likely to make my English Language Top 10 for 2002.(Many films showing in NYC have not opened here yet). Sokurov's MOTHER AND SON and Godard's IN PRAISE OF LOVE are two recent examples of "pure cinema" I treasure. Wife called them a bore though.

Yeah I love that movie! Haven't seen it in a while though. It's a perfect example of limitations spawning creativity. If I remember correctly, the best short films were by directors that suprised me.

If you love film DEEPLY, then you have to see Lumiere & Co. before you buy the farm. This collection of 50 second films demonstrates why Jim Morrison's quote "Cinema is the most totalitarian of the arts- there are no experts" is accurate.
The rules were hard, man: 3 takes only, no synchronized sound, and 52 seconds to do it in. It's freaking miraculous what these directors were able to come up with.

Spike Lee was almost disqualified, they cheated with the south american director-giving him 4 takes because he ALMOST had it!, and David Lynch made a fucking (pardon my french) feature film in 50 seconds!!!! And it might be the scariest bit of film I've ever seen if I really think about it.....

*in my worst Crocodile Hunter voice* CRIKEY, see this little beauty

I think it's now available on DVD at the video store I go to! I saw the tape. Are there any extras on the DVD?

I bought a laserdisc copy about two years ago and I note that there is a DVD available through a number of sources. Apparently the only extras on the DVD are production notes (format unspecified) and a trailer.

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As far as narrative, I prefer films that appear incomplete, able to absorb several interpretations, have a vague ending, or violate narrative conventions.

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Oscar, you just summed up beautifully my predilections as well. You should love About Schmidt. The ending is open to a few interpretations, and I don't know if any of them would be wrong.

I could watch Jack as Warren Schmidt forever. Hey Jack, this could be a sitcom smash....