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A new topic which might interest some of the readership of Filmwurld, coming from the discussion between Mr Knipp and vbloom re: "The Pianist" and Grim's review of it, is THE GERMAN CHARACTER. Does anybody have some informed opinions about the German character? Is it appropriate to regard the 'character' of any people, ever?
One of the clear distinctions Roman Polanski makes is that not all Germans were mean or monsters in WWII. Most of horrible beings in Germany were in fact the SS officers, who were previously con men, crooks, or just dispicable (spelling?) people. The German solders, however, are viewed in a different way. The German officer who confronts Szpilman is an example of a soldier who was really just doing his service to his country. We don't exactly know his viewpoints but we get an idea that his intentions are not to harm Szpilman.
If you look at the film, "Das Boot," which also takes place during WWII, notice that the Germans in that film are not portrayed in a negative way. They are citizens of Germany who are supporting their country and in addition, they're also looked as human beings. I believe there's one part where the captain listens to a singer from America but I could be wrong.
I wish to respond to pipsorcle that I KNOW that not ALL Germans were mean or monsters during WWII. In Roman Polanski's film, "The Pianist" the director showed many, many instances of German monstrosities and cruelties and one ONE instance of a German officer sparing the Jew, only because he was impressed with his piano playing. Otherwise, he would have been obligated to follow orders and turn the Jew in for extermination.
Now, what can be said about the German character, which does not necessarily characterize ALL Germans, but MANY of them, who were Hitler's willing executioners?
You are right about the German officer having to turn in Szpilman had he not been able to play the piano. However, talking about the German character himself, even if he was going to turn Szpilman in, he still didn't talk in a loud, threatening way. Before Szpilman played the piano, the German didn't abuse him verbally or physically. When Szpilman didn't respond to his first question, the German didn't hit him and say the second question again by yelling. The German did have a job to do, of course but I got that he himself was a patient man. His relationship with Szpilman is a different issue because the German wasn't sympathetic at the start.
I was rather amazed at your reply, citing the German officer's patience and apparent kindness by not raising his voice or striking him. Evidently, he had some education and breeding, some semblance of having been civilized. Still, you say he had a job to do, to turn Szpilman in to the death camps. He had a job to do? That was his job description? Eichmann's 'defense' was that he was 'only carrying out orders.' My criticism of THE GERMAN CHARACTER, as depicted in "The Pianist" was that so many Nazis were 'just following orders,' instead of maintaining moral integrity and so many Germans were Hitler's willing executioners.Quote:
Originally posted by pipsorcle
You are right about the German officer having to turn in Szpilman had he not been able to play the piano. However, talking about the German character himself, even if he was going to turn Szpilman in, he still didn't talk in a loud, threatening way. Before Szpilman played the piano, the German didn't abuse him verbally or physically. When Szpilman didn't respond to his first question, the German didn't hit him and say the second question again by yelling. The German did have a job to do, of course but I got that he himself was a patient man. His relationship with Szpilman is a different issue because the German wasn't sympathetic at the start.
The German character was to my opinion really the weakest part of the film. Where in Schindler's List the jews are the flat characters compared to Schindler en Goeth, so in the Pianist are the Germans. I think it's a typical Hollywood thing that the German-Jew contradiction is just so black and white! Actually I think it's disturbing that ALL germans except for the 'intellectual officer' are portrayed as beasts who get pleasure from torturing and killing jews. It's important to realise that in fact a lot of Germans (soldiers and civilians) were not anti-semitic and certainly didn't want to drive those millions of people to the gaschambers, but in a lot of cases they only had one option; kill them or get killed/ locked up at the arbeitslager themselves by the naziregime, just like in the Stalinregime, so they had to put their morals behind to survive.
I think American films, and especially Hollywoodfilms, should be paying more attention to this German Schizophrenia, instead of just choosing the easy way of stereotyping the enemy (which is also clearly visible in antiterrorism films; the viewer never gets the chance to learn anything about the situations that have driven terrorists to their deeds and so instead they're portrayed as brute maniacs on a powertrip).
We all know that nowadays film and television play a huge part in historical education especially in America because of the absence of real confrontation with the holocaust; everything is representation, so there is definitely a need to be aware of stigmatising falsifications like these.
But apart from this german character-thing I really did like the film, especially the way in which we experience the isolation of the main character when he has to hide for the Germans and goes (mentally) ill, which is one of the brilliant aspects of most Polanski films!
Mir wants to make a distinction of 'flat' characters vs characters shown in depth. He says the Jews (he used the small 'j') were flat in "Schindler's List."Quote:
Originally posted by Mir
The German character was to my opinion really the weakest part of the film. Where in Schindler's List the jews are the flat characters compared to Schindler en Goeth, so in the Pianist are the Germans. I think it's a typical Hollywood thing that the German-Jew contradiction is just so black and white! Actually I think it's disturbing that ALL germans except for the 'intellectual officer' are portrayed as beasts who get pleasure from torturing and killing jews. It's important to realise that in fact a lot of Germans (soldiers and civilians) were not anti-semitic and certainly didn't want to drive those millions of people to the gaschambers, but in a lot of cases they only had one option; kill them or get killed/ locked up at the arbeitslager themselves by the naziregime, just like in the Stalinregime, so they had to put their morals behind to survive.
I think American films, and especially Hollywoodfilms, should be paying more attention to this German Schizophrenia, instead of just choosing the easy way of stereotyping the enemy (which is also clearly visible in antiterrorism films; the viewer never gets the chance to learn anything about the situations that have driven terrorists to their deeds and so instead they're portrayed as brute maniacs on a powertrip).
We all know that nowadays film and television play a huge part in historical education especially in America because of the absence of real confrontation with the holocaust; everything is representation, so there is definitely a need to be aware of stigmatising falsifications like these.
But apart from this german character-thing I really did like the film, especially the way in which we experience the isolation of the main character when he has to hide for the Germans and goes (mentally) ill, which is one of the brilliant aspects of most Polanski films!
Hardly! Both Schindler and the Jewish accountant were shown with depth. Many of the Jewish workers were shown with depth, like the old Jew who personally wanted to thank Schindler and Schindler demanded such appreciative Jews be kept away from him! And the Jewish woman who was begging for some special consideration to her aged parents, who was begging, crying and pleading. "Schindler's List" showed depth of character in many instances, in comparison with "The Pianist," which were exaggerations to make a point. Mir wanted a realistic documentary, not a work of film art, which in this case showed the Holocaust through the eyes of a Jew. Of course, another film showing the exceptions to my assertion of THE GERMAN CHARACTER, would be another depiction, one compassionate to the condition of the German people, how they were defeated, sullen, impoverished and enraged after their humiliating defeat in WWI, and the way Germany was treated in defeat by the Versailles Treaty. Sure, a case can be made that psychologically the Germans had no choice, if they chose survival to courage, martyrdom and the moral high road. Consider the Israeli Jews who are also fighting for their survival, who could decimate the Palestinian refugees, but do not, who risk their lives to minimize collateral damage. If the Israeli Jews acted like the German Nazis, they would be executing 100 Arabs for every Jew killed, or leave the captured terrorists hanging from olive trees instead of rendering medical aid. They could put Arab heads on poles and display them on the highways. But they do not. Some people preserve moral values at all costs. The Germans in WWII did not. They did the opposite. It was mass murder and robbery. I don't know why Mir is excusing the Germans by pointing out that some Germans were decent and helpful. Nobody denies that. German history stigmatizes the German people, not VBloom.
Vbloom... Good point. After all, "The Pianist" is essentially about Szpilman. The German character had less screen time than I thought because he didn't arrive until much later in the film. One of the points Szpilman's book makes is about the relationship he had with the German officer. That took up more space in the book than in the film. Arguably if the German character wasn't well-written in one's point of view, then reading the book might give a better perspective on who the German is.
The thing to realize is that NOT all Germans were like the German officer who helped Szpilman. At heart they didn't really want to burn and torture those thousands and thousands and thousands of Jews. However, at the same time, they lived under a cruel law and if they were to join up with that German officer to help Szpilman, eventually they'd get caught and hanged.
Then again, "The Pianist" revealed that not all Jews were good.
Again, for those of you who want a film which shows more Germans and ones who aren't looked as monsters or cruel being then look at "Das Boot." Not a single German in that film mentioning anything about Jews, attacking America, or even anything that would make you think they're locked into being Nazis.
PIPSORCEL is certainly right that "Das Boot" is a great film, and revelatory about THE GERMAN CHARACTER. In that film there was no anti-Semitism or sadism or brutality. The German submariners were only doing their job, carrying out orders, being tough, imaginative, adaptive and courageous. They were good at struggling to survive, although they were eventually destroyed in war. There is no doubt the Germans are a tough people, creative and adapted to survive. Look at Germany today!Quote:
Originally posted by pipsorcle
Vbloom... Good point. After all, "The Pianist" is essentially about Szpilman. The German character had less screen time than I thought because he didn't arrive until much later in the film. One of the points Szpilman's book makes is about the relationship he had with the German officer. That took up more space in the book than in the film. Arguably if the German character wasn't well-written in one's point of view, then reading the book might give a better perspective on who the German is.
The thing to realize is that NOT all Germans were like the German officer who helped Szpilman. At heart they didn't really want to burn and torture those thousands and thousands and thousands of Jews. However, at the same time, they lived under a cruel law and if they were to join up with that German officer to help Szpilman, eventually they'd get caught and hanged.
Then again, "The Pianist" revealed that not all Jews were good.
Again, for those of you who want a film which shows more Germans and ones who aren't looked as monsters or cruel being then look at "Das Boot." Not a single German in that film mentioning anything about Jews, attacking America, or even anything that would make you think they're locked into being Nazis.
However, the German submariners were only following orders. They had no way to evaluate the righteousness of their cause. No doubt they felt they were members of the Master Race and were propagandized to win the war at all costs, that the German destiny was to rule the world.
This philosophy allows and tolerates any and all violations of the moral code of Western Civilization. They torpedoed enemy targets without questioning what was the ultimate goal. They had no feeling for the drowning of the enemy and some German submarines surfaced and machine gunned the survivors of the sunkin ships, but such a seen was not in "Das Boot."
There's a scene about midway through "The Pianist" in which an old man (allegedly Janusz Korczak, a fabled children's writer) acts as a pied piper, leading several children to a couple of storm troopers where he plays with them, calling them "bandits" and pretending to shoot them with his cane; all the while the kids are laughing and jumping. The storm troopers play his game, chuckling, even giving him a cigarette and lighting it for him. Given what we've seen, there's a fair amount of nervous suspense in the interaction but nothing happens. The Nazis move on, in good, even friendly, spirits.
This short scene, I believe, foreshadows the interaction between Szpilman and Captain Hosenfeld at the end of the film. Hosenfeld is shown to be a bureaucrat--albeit a powerful one--with a family portrait on his desk as he studies and signs several documents. It addresses Hannah Arendt's term "the banality of evil" in which virtually the entire war effort and each atrocity was documented by pencil-pushers. To kill or to help--for the most part they were decided by flunkies and it probably was as much a job as, say, being a mortgage underwriter or bank teller.
I'm not sure I'm ready to categorize the foot soldiers as "con men, crooks or just despicable." That would be too easy and would either identify the entire German people as such (they're not) or that Nazis only represented a small part of the German population (they didn't). The mindset of the people was swayed by a literate, gifted speaker who distorted the facts the people used to form judgement. That Hitler tapped into their subconcious need to blame Jews is undeniable but to say he appealed only to con men and crooks is to miss the point entirely.
I wasn't exactly talking about the whole German people or even the entire German army. I was rather referring to the SS soldiers. In case this helps clarify, I never said every SS soldier was a con man. I was just raising the possibiliites. There was a peculiar way these people were portrayed in "The Pianist" where they were doing more than just following orders. They were becoming monsters. Look at the drunk German officer who says he beats Jews at this night because it's New Years. Or those Germans who taunt these Jews in Poland to dance when they're not in the mood to. As a matter of fact, the SS men were the cause of these horrible crimes going on in the Holocaust. Hitler wanted this division of soldiers set up for a reason. If you were to be apart of this unit, you had to have a natural ability to be cruel and what not. At the end of the war, the Americans ordered all the SS soldiers in command to be executed. No, not the German soldiers in general, the SS Soldiers. The German who helped Szpilman wasn't apart of the SS. He wasn't cruel enough or even cruel at heart besides just simply following orders. I mean, these SS soldiers were the worst kind of soldiers imaginable. I would like to believe there's some innocent, humane or good soul who happened to be a SS soldier but I just can't think of any. I don't mean to generalize but that's just the way it was. I can definitely imagine that there were Germans and German soldiers who had good hearts and perhaps didn't believe Hitler's ambitions and words when he was in power but SS soldiers, it's really hard.
Kurt Gerstein was an SS soldier and chemist who facilitated the use of Zyklon B gas by the Nazis. Upon learning that the gas was being used to exterminate Jews, he attempted to stop it primarily by providing proof and having it presented to the pope. This is a true story presented in the new film by C. Costa-Gavras (Z, Missing) called AMEN. I recommend it.Quote:
Originally posted by pipsorcle
I would like to believe there's some innocent, humane or good soul who happened to be a SS soldier but I just can't think of any. I don't mean to generalize but that's just the way it was. I can definitely imagine that there were Germans and German soldiers who had good hearts and perhaps didn't believe Hitler's ambitions and words when he was in power but SS soldiers, it's really hard.
I wonder if Kurt Gerstein was a Jew passing as a German. Gerstein is a Jewish name. Perhaps the SS was only 99.9% German. Maybe he was one of these blonde, blue-eyed Jews. The fact that there was an occasional SS member who was not a monster is the exception that PROVES the rule!Quote:
Originally posted by oscar jubis
Kurt Gerstein was an SS soldier and chemist who facilitated the use of Zyklon B gas by the Nazis. Upon learning that the gas was being used to exterminate Jews, he attempted to stop it primarily by providing proof and having it presented to the pope. This is a true story presented in the new film by C. Costa-Gavras (Z, Missing) called AMEN. I recommend it.
Ok, good that mentioned Kurt Gerstein but that's one out of how many SS soldiers who weren't executed. I'm sure that the SS soldiers weren't evil or cruel to begin with but again, many of them were executed by Americans for their crimes. Whether they had good hearts before they became SS men or not, they still were executed because of what they did to the Jews.
The story of Kurt Gerstein does sound like one that would be great to tell on screen!
Many SS were executed as war criminals not only because of the murder of the Jews, but the murder of Poles and many Slavs who were viewed to be inferior. Genocide is a war crime. The SS also murdered and Gypsies, communists, homosexuals, the mentally retarded and mentally ill. They murdered those who spoke against Nazism . They encouraged the anti-Semites of various countries to aid them in exterminating Jews.Quote:
Originally posted by pipsorcle
Ok, good that mentioned Kurt Gerstein but that's one out of how many SS soldiers who weren't executed. I'm sure that the SS soldiers weren't evil or cruel to begin with but again, many of them were executed by Americans for their crimes. Whether they had good hearts before they became SS men or not, they still were executed because of what they did to the Jews.
The story of Kurt Gerstein does sound like one that would be great to tell on screen!
The sheer numbers of people who were systematically murdered over a long period of time suggests a defect in the German character. The Germans murdered 20 million Slavs. God knows how many German civilians were eventually killed in Allied bombing raids and the ground war. Who is to be blamed for these deaths?
Let us say that 6 million Jews were murdered and 6 million German civilians perished at the hands of the allies. Shall we call it 'even' and forget about it, relegating World War II to ancient history? In the language of moral equivalence and being non-judgmental, 6 million = 6 million, and all we can say is that 12 million innocents died needlessly, due to human fallibility?
Or shall we say that 6 million innocent people were murdered and another 6 million were supportive of the regime that murdered the Jews, and therefore culpable?
Flat characters, flat movie. I found the treatment of most of the characters in this movie to be flat. We're only given superficial treatment, the soap operatic type of confrontation between family members. The movie was black and white with a few gray tones thrown it. I thank you for the reference for the old bumbling man with the children and the Nazi soldiers, I forgot about that scene. It was a good one. I do believe that I would have preferred to have seen fewer characters and directed as in the Dr. Zhivago style rather than the curt and cookie cutter approach used in this movie.
I appreciate your opinion on "The Pianist" but could we stick to the discussion that others have been doing in regards to the German character? I don't want a discussion subject to get irrelovent.