Eve of Destruction

I've been mulling over my impressions of Fahrenheit for a few days now and I've come to some conclusions.
(I don't need to see it again).

-This film should affect the election in November, but will it? Will Americans "buy a flag and re-claim their country" as some guy on the imdb said? Will they send a strong message to that jackass cowboy-cum-psychopath who is in the White House? (RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK)

-I got the distinct feeling that this is just the tip of the iceberg. What Moore kindly lets us know is that the corruption is so deep-rooted, so "across-the-board", so inconceivably fucked up that we must do something now to put a halt to this madness. I say we because even though I'm Canadian I sympathize with the good, hardworking people who make the States as great as they are. You're not that different from us.

-To be exploited, to be used, to be lied to and to be ignored is the greatest crime of all. Moore shows how it all happened: how the man wasn't even elected, how it's played out since, and how action must be taken. Get rid of that motherfucking cancer known as George "biggest disgrace in the history of American politics" W. Bush.

-The soldiers in Iraq were the most disturbing thing for me. They seemed like complete morons, total idiots who had no clue why they were there and oblivious to even basic rules of combat. I can't tell you how much contempt I have for the U.S. military now. People can argue that Moore only shows the "hotshots" and the "bad" side of the war, but there is no good side. The U.S. attacked that country with NO PROVOCATION. The scenes of Iraqi people crying over loved ones rings more true to me than that lady from Flint who told her children that the military was a great career move. Sorry, but her naivete is shocking. I didn't feel sorry for her at all. Her blind patriotism allowed her to experience a harrowing ordeal- the death of a loved one, just like the thousands of Iraqi's whose homes were ripped apart. I wanted to give that lady a shake: you think joining the army is all about fighting little wars and coming home victorious to ticker-tape parades? Get with it, lady. Bush lied to you and you paid for it the hard way. And it's still happening- her husband was absolutely right: what about the soldiers that are dying today? Right now?

-Is the U.S. Presidency about bettering America and the lives of it's people? No. It's about money.
If you don't believe it then you are the kind of American Dubya wants you to be.

-Did I mention this man is sitting in the White House as we speak?

-People say Moore made this film to justify his oscar speech. He made it because he loves his country and is only asking what happened to it. He wants it back, and so should you.
The man is very smart. He'll keep making films that show us what we are until we all wake up. Is Fahrenheit enough to get people to say "You answer to us. And we say BURN, motherfucker, BURN".

Im off to see this right now. I am very excited. Much of what you point out is right on the money and I'm glad to hear that the film is born of such sentiment.

Bush is an all time low in American history. What a shame for our country and what a detriment to the world.

Moore is an absolute patriot (via his other films). He might be a little egotistical, but he's pinned the measure of himself as a man to something much greater than money.

Im hopeful that through the thick fog that hangs over the US, there will be enough clarity to oust Bush and his gang of conspirators in the next election. We must reclaim our place amongst the other members of the world community. A young and untested country (relatively speaking) must start to show the signs of a maturing nation that can learn from history, account for its actions and be a positive presence on the earth. Otherwise...

P

I lost a friend today.
He thinks Fahrenheit is propaganda of the first order.

Funny, considering the images speak for themselves.

Clip after clip after clip of raw sewage, flowing freely from the mouth of one of the most arrogant men to ever walk the earth.
Tons of stock footage (many from major networks) that show beyond any possible doubt that the man in charge is a two-faced coward, a man whose only concern in life is fattening his pocketbook, at any cost- even the lives of his own countrymen.

Propaganda my ass. If Stephen Harper became the Prime Minister of this country we'd be no different from Bush and his cronies. No fucking different. I don't like the Liberals, but we don't have anything better. The shit's so deep no one except a cunning politician would dare try to "lead the country".

I'm feeling ill. But this too, shall pass.

You can't argue with a filmed image.

Yeah, great job, troops! OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM was a resounding sucess! Victory is ours! God Bless America!

WE ARE THE GREAT LIBERATORS OF OUR TIME!
WE ARE THE NATION THAT MAKES THINGS RIGHT IN THE WORLD!

You can't argue with a filmed image.

Anduril won't dare see fahrenheit. He's afraid of the truth for some reason. Yet he says he sticks to the facts. Give me a bleeding break. Something is not right. I think I'll stir a shitstorm, because I'm steaming mad that I lost a friend today:
Your blindness will be the death of you. (It's been doing a good job so far)

I won't see the movie because it is propaganda and I have no intention of having the proceeds of my money go to the types of causes that Moore advocates. Whatever Moore's talents as a documentary filmmaker (and I do not deny them), he rants and raves and distorts. See http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ for starters. The arguments he presents in the film are nothing new from the liberal left in the United States and I don't need to see the documentary to know that. What's more, there are people with a great deal more intelligence than Michael Moore who have decried the Bush Whitehouse and the Iraqi conflict; I've read their material. So, don't bother throw the red herring at me that I need to see this movie...

And Johann: You're awfully naive if you think the filmed image doesn't lie. The skill of a director to use edits, cuts, and juxtapose images and thereby create a fiction is elaborate, extensive, and well-known. Any person who takes seriously film should be aware of that but you are so caught up in your love affair with film that it speaks no evil and you hear no evil.

You didn't lose a friend today; you purposefully denounced me today because you can't handle the fact that I have a different view from you. Good luck with that!

I will defend to the teeth the decision made by the Americans, the British, and many other Coalition governments to liberate Iraq. It was the right decision to make then and it remains the right decision today. Moore's talent for distortion and the liberal left change nothing on this issue.

A little blurb from a foxnews.com writer who was not a big Moore fan:

From Roger Friedman's / FOXNews.com review of the premier.

...

But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.

As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" - as we saw last night - is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty - and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice.

Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets such as Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say.

Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and bin Laden families.

...

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion on the film. Though I must say Anduril that it would be a more interesting discussion if you saw the film!...Perhaps you could buy a ticket to something else and see Moore's movie instead...Ive heard of people doing that who feel similarily to you.

That's not a bad suggestion, pmw. I'll have to see if I can arrange that in the next little while before the film slinks out of theatres. I'm just in the midst of completing my thesis so time is tight with me these days. Still, I'll see if I can swing that. Never pulled that sort of trick before.

Incidentally, I have no doubt, as stated, that Moore is a talented filmmaker and, if I happen to make it in to see the film, I expect to have that confirmed with F9/11. The problem I have with F9/11 arises out of its distortion and misrepresentation; it is propaganda, meant to manipulate viewers to share the opinions of its filmmaker. It denies the viewer relevant facts and leaves open to them only one view--the filmmaker's. Michael Moore's website and rhetoric are enough to substantiate this interpretation.

The links between the Bush family, the House of Saud, and the Bin Ladens are well-known to me as well as the 'suspicious' movement of Saudis out of the country post-9/11. The complicated web of oil and other business connections is something I also know. I have seen and read ad nauseam about liberal opinions that the war lacked justification or legitimacy, that deny the existence of WMD and terrorist links to Saddam's regime, that argue for the inhumanity of the conflict, that lament the lost lives of American soldiers, and that carciature the right as heartless and elitist imperialists and socio-economic tyrants. I also understand and know about the American complicity in arming Saddam. There are also the arguments that Republican administrations turned a blind eye to Halabja and initially to the invasion of Kuwait that set off GWI--these are known to me as well. I also have read extensively about the so-called neo-conservative movement, their 'manifestos' and their pre-planning on Iraq. I also know the 'suspicious' chronological issues on 9/11 and liberal opinions about Bush's performance on that day. I've read countless collections of quotes that point out, or attempt to point out, inconsistencies and contradictions in the public and private, former and later statements of various cabinet officials. I've read many publicly available government, congressional, senate, and committee briefs on the events relating to 9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq. I'm well acquianted with Moore's take that the media failed to ask the 'hard' questions. I know about the liberal complaints about Bush's military service. I understand the issues around the Abu Ghraib situation. I've also come across the liberal arguments that attempt to shock people with staggering civilian and military deaths. Yadda, yadda, yadda... etc. etc. etc. ... this is not an issue that I'm uninformed about. I doubt very much that Moore will have anything to present that I have not already read about or seen.

The skill of his film will be in the way he attempts to manipulate the viewer into accepting his perspective on these issues. To accomplish this, he will juxtapose images, suppress and ignore facts, utilize innuendo and imply connections, telescope events, make edits and cuts that distort reality, and so on.

Also, I should point out, I'm not a Bush or Republican groupie who subscribes carte blanche to everything claimed by them. Ditto for right-wing commentators like Vox Day, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, etc. etc. etc. Though I support Operation Iraqi Freedom and the war on terrorism, I come to my positions by my own research and support Bush, however imperfect he has carried on the Presidency and the Iraqi conflict, because ultimately his views more closely reflect my own.

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Originally posted by Johann

-The soldiers in Iraq were the most disturbing thing for me. They seemed like complete morons, total idiots who had no clue why they were there and oblivious to even basic rules of combat. I can't tell you how much contempt I have for the U.S. military now. People can argue that Moore only shows the "hotshots" and the "bad" side of the war, but there is no good side. The U.S. attacked that country with NO PROVOCATION. The scenes of Iraqi people crying over loved ones rings more true to me than that lady from Flint who told her children that the military was a great career move. Sorry, but her naivete is shocking. I didn't feel sorry for her at all. Her blind patriotism allowed her to experience a harrowing ordeal- the death of a loved one, just like the thousands of Iraqi's whose homes were ripped apart. I wanted to give that lady a shake: you think joining the army is all about fighting little wars and coming home victorious to ticker-tape parades? Get with it, lady. Bush lied to you and you paid for it the hard way. And it's still happening- her husband was absolutely right: what about the soldiers that are dying today? Right now?

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Johan, buddy, I admire your passion but with all due respect I think you missed the point.
(in my best Obe Wan voice:) Look deeper, young patawan.

Those soldiers weren't morons, or even trigger happy shitheads as they may have come off. They were scared little kids. All of that bravado and apparent bloodlust has been instilled in them by a military industrial complex. C’mon, Johan. You saw Full Metal Jacket. It's what they put on to hide their fear from the camera, their colleagues and themselves

It’s important to read between the lines in Moore’s Films and not to get too carried away. Unfortunately, a style like Michael’s is the only way to get across to people in this “Reality TV” era.

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(anduril) It denies the viewer relevant facts and leaves open to them only one view--the filmmaker's. Michael Moore's website and rhetoric are enough to substantiate this interpretation.

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You’re absolutely right, but it’s not as though he’s hiding relevant facts because they might upset his point. Feel free to prove me wrong. One fact that Moore failed to mention was the fact that as proposals to the house judiciary committee failed to gain approval of the senate, John Kerry sat on the Senate as did Al Gore. Who’s side are they on, anyways?

Raoul

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Originally posted by Raoul
You’re absolutely right, but it’s not as though he’s hiding relevant facts because they might upset his point. Feel free to prove me wrong.

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That's exactly what he is doing; as I already pointed out, see http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ for starters.

Now we get down to it.


Raoul- as a former Infantry soldier, I can speak with confidence about those soldiers. The "bravado" they displayed was part and parcel of a coping with the situation, sure, but man, the Canadian government SHUT DOWN our Airborne Regiment for the same behavior in Somalia. The soldiers are mocking their "enemies"- what the fuck is all this sexual shit? Naked prisoners, posing, simulating masturbation? What the hell kind of army thinks this is "proper conduct"? The Geneva Convention seems non-existant!
War Crimes. War Crimes. War Crimes.
Want me to say it again?

Fucking War Crimes.

There is a lot I love about America but man, that shit don't fly.
How the fuck are you gonna be respected as a liberator- like Canada was to Holland- go to Holland and ask anyone what they think of Canadians- that's gratitude for liberation, mario.
The U.S. military seem like a gang of phony machismo egomaniacal rapists. Yes, I saw Full Metal Jacket- it's the same thing! Who's criticizing Kubrick? No one. Don't shoot the messenger. Kubrick didn't go to war- he just showed it to us.
"We are jolly green giants, walking the earth!"

Have we learned nothing?

You have more than a different point of view. I entertain differing points of view. Why would I be here? I would just sit in solitude, happy with what I know. I seek differing points of view AND give up my own with supreme confidence.

You have unmitigated blindness.

I see both sides of the coin- you see one.

See, this world of ours is not so simple as you think. You can't "pick a party" and run with them. So many variables, so many issues...the planet is so unpredictable, the very nature of life so esoteric (and beautiful) that we cannot count on our leaders. Why? Because they're not like us- they don't live like us (JUST LIKE MOORE POINTS OUT) They don't give a shit about our problems. Oh, they'll tell you they do, they'll pledge that they do, but you have more naivete than me if you think they're gonna follow through.

The filmed image. Let's get down to brass taxes my blind ex-friend:

1. Movies are fundamentally deception. The movie Galaxy Quest showed us what the movie business is in a humourous way. The aliens wondered why humans called TV entertainment, when it was not real. They asked why we would entertain ourselves with a fictional show. With "lies".

2. There's a colossal difference between "giving it up" for such obvious, flagrant media and "giving it up" for a film (Fahrenheit) which has essentially only one question: What is going on?
Which begs the question, Kenneth: can you tell the difference between fact and fiction?

In this case, clearly the answer is NO.

Thanks for posting a link to Fahrenheit Fact, Ken-

TOO BAD NO ONE CAN CONTEST IT BECAUSE THEY WON'T ALLOW COMMENTS. I'm sure Moore himself has tried to speak out on the site.

This is what I'm talking about: one side of the coin, draconian fear-based blindness.

And the fact that you haven't even seen the film makes me wonder why I'm even addressing you at this point.

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Originally posted by anduril

That's exactly what he is doing; as I already pointed out, see http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ for starters.

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You've pointed us in the general direction of a stream of conciousness library that caters to kneejerk right wing apologists.

I'd be interested in seeing dirict refuations of Points of fact made in the movie. Please do this forum a favour and pick the pieces of that blog that you feel best represent it's points in specific and in spirit. I don't have time to sift through all of the bullshit rhetoric (ie: moore is fat, moore is unamerican....)

As I brought up in the other thread: This is America. If Moore distorted the facts, told lies, made unfair assertions or depictions, he's going to get sued. The guy's making a pile of money off of this movie that could probably fill my office a few times in large bills. If it's untrue or defamatory in any way, lawyers should be licking their lips.

As of yet, nothing.

Raoul

Hello darkness my old friend
I've come to talk to you again

The sound of silence.


Moore has gone on record: anyone who thinks anything in Fahrenheit is false, he'll give complete disclosure on where, when, and who gave him the information.

The man is a hero- he's going against authority and overcoming it. The government is for the people, right? That's precisely the problem. The people aren't happy. The people feel cheated. The people want answers. the people deserve answers.

The people aren't getting answers. They're getting rhetoric- from Bush, not Moore, Ken- fuck the ignorance is staggering- the U.S. is at an all-time low (like pmw pointed out) and it does not have to continue. SHOULD NOT continue.

Raoul: I'm not your librarian. If you can't spend a couple of minutes sifting through the blog that's your problem not mine. You won't have to go far for salient points about the movie because they don't waste time.

RE: Litigation. You'd think so, eh? But, why then are the political pundits able to publish volumes upon volumes of lies month by month. The fact is that Moore's movie will receive protection under the very same forces that come to work to protect political booksales and op-eds in this country. Oh, and add to that, very bad move for Bush and the White House administration to sue Moore in an election year; better to ignore it.

F9/11 uses facts in evidence and it quite obviously passes the legal standards. Miramax and Moore wouldn't have released it if it didn't meet the legal standards (and, incidentally, both have indicated that legal firms were consulted and are retained in the event a libel/slander suit is launched); too much money at stake for them to make that type of move without legal consultation.

F9/11, however, is a distortion of the facts, a misrepresentation. There are many ways to accomplish this. You can put two disparate facts together and present them as having a causal connection of some kind. You can read into the absence of information. You can proof-text an issue while ignoring contrary evidence. In the case of film, you can take cut, edit, or juxtapose images to communicate certain implicit ideas. I could go on... the art of propaganda is extensive.

Fahrenheit Fact has no legs.

If all they can do is be anti-Moore without allowing anyone to say anything in return...

here, fishy fishy...


The "art of propoganda"? What possible benefit does Moore have in attacking Bush?

Where's his prize?

Fahrenheit uses more than just facts in evidence.

He's unearthed some devastating footage of Bush and his policy makers who have more than just their hands in the cookie jar.

These are Masters of Corruption. The kind that can only be produced by BIG BUSINESS.

The lives of fellow human beings are not important when you need your wallet full. This is Moore's argument.

See the film before you pass judgment, Ken- you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Fahrenheit Fact is just for starters... and it gives its readers a reasonable reason for not using comments. It is simply meant to disseminate some of the distortions at work in the film. Flip it back at you, Moore provides no place to comment on his film at his website. Its pure promotion too. To help the troops, Moore advertises on his site that he will send free copies of any of his movies if they write him and tell him their situation. Yeah, I'm sure that doesn't have an obvious set of motives. So gracious to help out the troops like that...

Michael Moore is a well-established liberal pundit. If you want to jump in bed with him simply because he also knows how to work a camera and spin a tale...

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Originally posted by Johann
The "art of propoganda"? What possible benefit does Moore have in attacking Bush?

Where's his prize?

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I really didn't read this, did I? Hmmm, where's his prize? What's the benefit? There are so many possible ways to just begin to answer this question... surely you can think of just one of those reasons and save me the time.

Only one: getting rid of that Texan asshole and knowing he helped do it.

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Originally posted by Johann
These are Masters of Corruption. The kind that can only be produced by BIG BUSINESS.

The lives of fellow human beings are not important when you need your wallet full. This is Moore's argument.

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As I mentioned, I've heard it all. This is nothing new. Republicans and Bush et al. sit in dark rooms, smoking cohibas, and conspiring how best to manipulate the world stage in order to satiate their insatiable lust for power and wealth. Yes, yes, yes and poor little Michael Moore--no money to his name--valiantly walks the corridors of power in his blue collar and filthy hat, jeans, and shirt to root out this corruption and set it in the light of day for all to see. Hmmm... wonderful... Thank-you, Mr. Moore for your undefiled purity of conscience, your dedication to objectivity and the everyman. Thank-you, Mr. Moore that you alone have the courage to summon the American people to their civic duty, that is to vote Democrat!

He ain't "spinning a tale", man.

It's truth. Undeniable, you-bet-your-bibby truth. Moore is using a heavy-hand, but it's no more heavy than the one Bush and co. used to deceive the American people. (and the world)

I'm staring in disbelief at your comments, Ken.



Why are only Canadians arguing about this movie on this thread?

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Originally posted by anduril


As I mentioned, I've heard it all. This is nothing new. Republicans and Bush et al. sit in dark rooms, smoking cohibas, and conspiring how best to manipulate the world stage in order to satiate their insatiable lust for power and wealth. Yes, yes, yes and poor little Michael Moore--no money to his name--valiantly walks the corridors of power in his blue collar and filthy hat, jeans, and shirt to root out this corruption and set it in the light of day for all to see. Hmmm... wonderful... Thank-you, Mr. Moore for your undefiled purity of conscience, your dedication to objectivity and the everyman. Thank-you, Mr. Moore that you alone have the courage to summon the American people to their civic duty, that is to vote Democrat!

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You've heard it all before? You obviously haven't heard that Bush was a Yale BONESMAN. Know what they are, Ken? An elite group whose only mission in life is world domination! Hmmm. Bush is President....

And you don't believe it? Your post above is actually not that far off the mark- these guys do conspire to manipulate! They do have an insatiable lust for power and money!

This is how blind you are. They do it while people like you support it! SHAME ON YOU!

As I've said before, your ignorance is staggering.

No spin. Of course not. I know that. F9/11 is purity of vision, an unassailable bastion of truth, and Moore is the everyman who wants that truth to be heard. He shows consummate trust to lay out all the details and let his viewers decide. He strives to liberate his audience from the tyranny of their media and their enslavement to the wiles and deception of the Republican-right. 'F9/11 ignites box office Passion,' screams his website. Moore stares right into the abyss and cries out in the wilderness, "Repent!" He sounds the call: "Let all people hear know that their salvation is at hand. John Kerry shall deliver us from the throes of Satan and his minions. Vote! Vote! Vote!"

Geroge Bush, Skull and Bones, 1967. Yeah, I get it.

Oh, wait! John Kerry, Skull and Bones, 1965.

Time to check into rehab, man- whatever your on is destroying you and your good sense.

What happened to you? Your intelligence has left you....This is not the Ken I know.

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Originally posted by anduril
Geroge Bush, Skull and Bones, 1967. Yeah, I get it.

Oh, wait! John Kerry, Skull and Bones, 1965.

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Keep going! Don't stop there.

Yeah, you get it. What do you get?

Politicians are cunning-Kerry's an idiot too- all of them. The U.S. (and canada) are in a crisis situation right now.

George W. Bush will win the election in November. Why? Because he paid for it in cold, hard, blood-drenched cash. Remember Dogville by Lars von Trier? Do you remember your President NIXON?

I highly recommend reading two books by Hunter S. Thompson:

Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72- Hunter shows with extrordinary, gonzo, heat-seeking truth how Nixon stole the election in 1972 from George McGovern (and everybody else) and it's the best political book I will ever read- yes, EVER READ. Hunter Thompson is one of my heroes- as a journalist, a freak, and a man.

Kingdom of Fear- this is his latest. It's the truth, undistilled, AGAIN, by the greatest gonzo poet America has ever produced.
He tells us the next ten years are gonna suck big time, and I believe him. Read these important works- AMERICAN WORKS- with NO PROPAGANDA, and you'll see what it's really all about.

Hunter hated Bush senior so much he wrote a book called Better Than Sex, where he laments that the country is so fucked and Bush has to go so badly that he was willing to vote for Clinton to get Bush out of the white house.

I wonder what the good doctor is thinking right now, in the aftermath of Fahrenheit 9/11...

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Originally posted by anduril
Raoul: I'm not your librarian.

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Indeed. Nonetheless, you haven't come up with anything usefull, and neither has that blog as far as I can tell. I'm inviting you to pick some salient points from it and throw them up here for discussion. Unless, of course, you can't find anythng of merit in that dung heap, either.

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(anduril)
RE: Litigation. You'd think so, eh? But, why then are the political pundits able to publish volumes upon volumes of lies month by month. The fact is that Moore's movie will receive protection under the very same forces that come to work to protect political booksales and op-eds in this country.

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Yeah, no. It looks like you might have your country lines blurred a bit. In the US, publishing provable untruths about a person or corporation makes one liable for court action. If any of the Facts that Moore asserts in his movie were not the truth, lawyers would come out of cracks in the sidewalk like those flying ants do this time of year. No one's going to get away with saying something like : "The Bush Family has made 400 bil off of business with the Saudis" and get away with it by saying, "oh... that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to freedom of speech".

Any lawyers out there care to comment?

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(anduril)Oh, and add to that, very bad move for Bush and the White House administration to sue Moore in an election year; better to ignore it.

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Tough one to ignore, this movie. Although, i'm sure they're wishing they could. You raise an interesting point: Could they better benefit by waiting untill they loose the election (if they loose the election) and then sueing? They would argueably be entitled to more dammages if they can prove that he made them loose the election.

Raoul[SIZE=1]

Exactly, Raoul.

Let's see if Michael Moore is sued after Bush wins in Nov.

Seriously man, I get it. Like I said, the Republicans are all gathered in dark rooms, smoking cohibas, and conspiring world domination. They need to be stopped. It reminds me of the Jews in Europe shortly before WWII. Here's my proposal in twenty-three points:

1. We demand the unification of all Americans on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. We demand equality of rights and the abrogation of the World Trade Organization, the G8, and NAFTA.

3. We demand land and territory for the sustenance of our people.

4. Only a member of the Democratic Party can be a citizen. Consequently no Republican can be a citizen of the United States of America.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in the United States only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Republic, the state or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting capitalist economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens.

8. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

9. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:

10. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

11. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

12. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

13. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

14. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

15. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the Republic, state or municipality.

16. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

17. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest, primarily Republicans and the Religious Right.

18. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious American to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the Republic must be striven for by the school as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the Republic of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

19. The Republic is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

20. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

21. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of an American press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the English language be Democratic: b. Republican newspapers be required to have the express permission of the Republic to be published. They may not be printed in the English language: c. Republicans are forbidden by law any financial interest in Democratic publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Republic of the Republicans concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

22. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the Republic so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the American people. Our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

23. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Republic. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Republic and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Republic within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Can you give me that in lay-man's terms?

I'm just a regular joe.
I just like movies.

Don't hurt me....

Quote:

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Originally posted by Raoul
Yeah, no. It looks like you might have your country lines blurred a bit. In the US, publishing provable untruths about a person or corporation makes one liable for court action. If any of the Facts that Moore asserts in his movie were not the truth, lawyers would come out of cracks in the sidewalk like those flying ants do this time of year. No one's going to get away with saying something like : "The Bush Family has made 400 bil off of business with the Saudis" and get away with it by saying, "oh... that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to freedom of speech".

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If I'm confused or blurring lines as you suggest, perhaps you could address the substance of my point. Is it your take that all the books in this section of Amazon.com are free from libel or slander. If you claim that they are, doesn't that point to how incredibly weak the legal standard of libel and slander is in the United States?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Johann
Can you give me that in lay-man's terms?

I'm just a regular joe.
I just like movies.

Don't hurt me....

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Now, I'm confused. Who was the ignorant one again? If you can't appreciate the significance of what I posted then you've really got a horrible deficiency in your grasp of politics, history, and ideology, Johann.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Raoul
Indeed. Nonetheless, you haven't come up with anything usefull, and neither has that blog as far as I can tell. I'm inviting you to pick some salient points from it and throw them up here for discussion. Unless, of course, you can't find anythng of merit in that dung heap, either.

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So, you've read it. Perhaps, you could give me some evidence for your position that it's a dung heap. Comment, if you will, on just a couple of the Fahrenheit Facts #1-15 at the site.

Quote:

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Originally posted by anduril


If I'm confused or blurring lines as you suggest, perhaps you could address the substance of my point. Is it your take that all the books in this section of Amazon.com are free from libel or slander. If you claim that they are, doesn't that point to how incredibly weak the legal standard of libel and slander is in the United States?

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Well I'm no lawyer and my attorney was last seen en-route to Azatlan with a salt shaker half full of cocaine, but I'll do my best.

As near as I can tell, no. These books are not exempt from libel suits. We're talking about America here, you can sue anyone you want. If the judge finds that you have published information that is not true, and it damaged someone's rep, you pay up.

As for the Communist manifesto above, it's very clever. I dare say it's more inflamitory than a Michael Moore film.
It looks like you might have me all wrong: I endorse no major political party - democrat or republican. It's my position that, in all likelyhood, the democrats are just as evil or worse. Chances are that they're working towards the same goals.
Remember: No Senetor would sign the bill to have the Supreme Court's decision to appoint bush as president recinded. Many of those senetors were democrats. One of them was John Kerry.

What does this mean? I don't know. It could be that - as the good doctor has suggested many times before - we're doomed. I do know that if people started voting, payed attention to what was going on and made their voices heard on a large scale, chances are politicians would grow some accountability.[COLOR=skyblue][COLOR=skyblue][COLOR=skyblue]

Cazart!


My attorney was pouring beer on his chest to facilitate the tanning process...

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Originally posted by Raoul
Well I'm no lawyer and my attorney was last seen en-route to Azatlan with a salt shaker half full of cocaine, but I'll do my best.

As near as I can tell, no. These books are not exempt from libel suits. We're talking about America here, you can sue anyone you want. If the judge finds that you have published information that is not true, and it damaged someone's rep, you pay up.

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So why then haven't there been a virtual stream of suits and counter-suits with respect to these books? Are they all telling the truth? Why is this stuff getting published?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Raoul
As for the Communist manifesto above, it's very clever. I dare say it's more inflamitory than a Michael Moore film.

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That's not the Communist manifesto but nice try. I'll give a "B" for effort, k?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Raoul
It looks like you might have me all wrong: I endorse no major political party - democrat or republican. It's my position that, in all likelyhood, the democrats are just as evil or worse. Chances are that they're working towards the same goals.
Remember: No Senetor would sign the bill to have the Supreme Court's decision to appoint bush as president recinded. Many of those senetors were democrats. One of them was John Kerry.

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I love the world you live in. Can I join? Do I apply with the casting director of the X-Files or is it a direct application to Oliver Stone that gets me in? We can talk about it later in Roswell, okay? If I can shake my FBI tail, I should be there by sundown.