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Thread: Brokeback Mountain

  1. #46
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    In haste -- just got back from trip East -- as I hinted, a Google search did suggest there are a number of "gay" oral servicings in some Yakuza movies, and that there is something gay somewhere or several places in films by Kitano.

    I appreciate your comments on Brokeback, trevor, but differ with you at several points or just don't think your comments are relevant, e.g., that you hate country and western music and that Jake's moustache reminds you of Village People; I don't think either comment relates to the people in the story. The scenery is beautiful, but most critics I've seen didn't think that a huge asset to the story, sinc emost consider the early, sheepherding sequences the least powerful in the movie. In my opinion they detract from the hardscabble quality of the original story, which certainly doesn't dwell on any scenic aspects of the men's work or relaltionship.

    I strenuously object to the characterization of Jack as an "obvious slut," based on nothing but what you call his "nonchalant slouch" in the initial scene. This interpretation of Jack has been repeated by others, and one reviewer, not a very favorable one, has called Jack a "sexual predator." This is ridiculous. The only thing you can say about Jack in the movie is that he is made clearly the more accepting of his gayness and the less willing or able to resist it. How can he be considered the "predator" or the "slut" when it is Ennis who is the "top" as indicated in several scenes, and when you are saying there is nothing much but heavy petting and kissing, you are choosing to overlook the however briefly quite clearly indicated (as Nathan Lee puts it) "spit-lubed buttsex" between the two men. This interpretation of Jack as predator or slut is a way of going along with Ennis' "internatlized homophobia," and making him a victim. False. It takes two to tango.

  2. #47
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    I'm sorry you found so much fault with my comments but after all the build up to the film, it was a lot lighter than I expected.

    The slut comment wasn't meant to be taken too seriously and I was surprised that Jack was the one to be the (I don't know how you would word it), the one to recieve rather than give.

    and when you are saying there is nothing much but heavy petting and kissing, you are choosing to overlook the however briefly quite clearly indicated (as Nathan Lee puts it) "spit-lubed buttsex" between the two men.

    What I actually said - The sex scenes within the film are negligible, most passion shown through heavy kissing and hugging

    Oh come on Chris, be honest that one scene is negigable, if the film had been between a man and a woman or two women, there probably would have been far longer and stronger scenes.

    Another point, aren't passionate kissing and hugging signs of love and/or lust?

    If they're not then please notify my wife in writing.

    This interpretation of Jack as predator or slut is a way of going along with Ennis' "internatlized homophobia," and making him a victim. False. It takes two to tango.

    A tragic love story about two people note the words love story and two people no mention of victim.

    who can only steal precious moments with each other while leading ordinary lives, married with children. The major difference in this tale of illicit love is that the two people are both men.

    I'm sorry Chris but this film is a mainstream product, just because the main relationship is between two men doesn't mean I have to look at it differently from any other tragic love story, why do I need to keep the emphasis on gay?

    So what if I liked the scenery, that's the sort of comment I'd make on any film, same with my dislikes, the only time I had to grit my teeth during the film was because of the music.

    Jake's moustache like Anne's wig were both suitable for the period of the film and in the case of Jake used to signal the passing years but I'd be happy not to see either again.

    I did merit the relevance of the story in terms of reality and history, it's good to see a mainstream US film with a relationship that happens to be between two men, but in terms of the World as a whole, the fact that it's between two men is not a big deal.

    I enjoyed the film and found it tragic in the fact that their love had to be hidden, not just because of the ending.

    You cannot help but feel more for Ennis because his whole life seems to be one huge struggle throughout the film, the scene he describes from his childhood prevented him from making the break, coming out and leading a happier life with the person he truly loved, now that is tragic.

    Cheers Trev.

    P.S Up until this point I have not read one review of the film, I'm glad I went to see it blind but will now read yours and other reviews and comments.
    Last edited by trevor826; 01-07-2006 at 07:27 AM.
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  3. #48
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    trevor,

    Your response is your response. I can't find fault with it on that basis. It reflects what you saw and felt. But when you say it's a tragic love story and then say it's lighter than you expected, that to me just means you didin't respond to it as much as a lot of people have, not as much as you may have expected to yourself. LIkewise when you say the sex scenes are "negligible," that has a subjective ring, in other words, it suggests not just that they are short but that they are not so important, but in fact they are very important.

    The first thing that hit me on seeing the two principals was that it was obvious who would start the relationship, Jack (Jake Gyllenhaal) is a slut, his nonchalant slouch speaking volumes. Sure enough on a night of temperamental weather, he instigates the relationship with Ennis (Heath Ledger), a relationship that will dominate the rest of their lives.
    This in my view clearly suggests Jack is a sexual predator. Hence "a love story about two people" doesn't extricate you from your implication, which I think is unjustified in the story or the movie. If one of the two is helpless to resist his feelings it's Jack not Ennis, who does (Ennis does) resist as much as he can, though obviously since it goes on for twenty years, they're both helpless. How do you get to see a "nonchalant slouch" as sluttish? Hve you got gaydar? Maybe I should write to your wife about that.

    I'm just kidding, but though my gaydar might show me that Jack is going to start the relationship, though it didn't, and in that case I would know something neither of the two men knew, nothing would tell me from just the way he's standing that he's a "slut."

    I'm sorry Chris but this film is a mainstream product, just because the main relationship is between two men doesn't mean I have to look at it differently from any other tragic love story, why do I need to keep the emphasis on gay?
    You're taking us back to Square One. The thread has been about this for a while now. Please go back and read Nathan Lee's comments on the Dave Kehr website (which I quoted above) or read his thumbnail review in the current Film Comment. If the story didn't have universal aspects it wouldn't be getting audiences and awards, but as I said earlier, to be universal a story must first be specific and vivid and grounded in a certain world, and the mainstream critics who have said "aw shucks, this is just a love story," are consciously or subconsiciously trying to sweep the strong gay content under the carpet, because the mainstream (liberal) attitude toward being gay is "fine, that's okay with me, now let's not mention it again, okay?"
    So what if I liked the scenery, that's the sort of comment I'd make on any film, same with my dislikes, the only time I had to grit my teeth during the film was because of the music.
    If you liked the scenery you liked the scenery. That's fine. I was just ocmmenting on the response I've seen to the scenery, that's all. And I'll agree the music is very conventional and boring, maybe to you even seriouslyl irritating. But since I was deeply into the story, I didn't let the music bother me, I guess. In a longer review I might comment on it and probably wouldn't like it any more than you did.
    I did merit the relevance of the story in terms of reality and history, it's good to see a mainstream US film with a relationship that happens to be between two men, but in terms of the World as a whole, the fact that it's between two men is not a big deal.
    What particularly gives you the authority to speak for "the World as a whole," and why is this "not a big deal" when much evidence is to the contrary?

    You cannot help but feel more for Ennis because his whole life seems to be one huge struggle throughout the film, the scene he describes from his childhood prevented him from making the break, coming out and leading a happier life with the person he truly loved, now that is tragic.
    It is true that after marriage Jack has an "easier" time of it financially by far than Ennis, but still, you seem to be putting your foot in your mouth here, because what happens to Jack in the end, eh? I think we have to feel for both guys equally, trevor, not pick one.

  4. #49
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    DISCUSSION FUEL

    "Brokeback Mountain raised the specter of a neo-Western first-wives club via its emotional investment in the disappointed spouses. Far from diluting the film's queer power, the hetero element emphasized the durability of Ennis and Jack's rawhide passion"
    (Graham Fuller)

    "A tender makeout between two hairy, paunchy midlifers_now that would be radical"
    (Jessica Winter)

    "Brokeback is not just another story of tragic, helpless victims. Repression, specially the internalized variety, is the clear villain here. It comes in many forms. Straight people claiming the authority to determine queer legitimacy and fetishizing it is one"
    (Steve Erickson)

    "The year most transgressive homo love story was Tropical Malady. Just as the crags and bluffs of Brokeback swallow up the star-crossed lovers, at once creating and destroying for them a false Eden, the Thai jungle to which Malady's young men retreat becomes both an erotic sanctuary and a literal fantasy world."
    (Michael Koresky)

    "If I hear one more straight critic complain that Brokeback Mountain isn't particularly gay, I'm gonna spit on my hand, lube up my cock, and fuck him in the butt. I'm only kissing if he looks like Heath Ledger, though."
    (Nathan Lee)

  5. #50
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    This is just getting bloody silly, you interpret what I say to suit your own means despite my explanation. You can twist and turn things as much as you like, it doesn't change my original intention.

    This in my view clearly suggests Jack is a sexual predator

    My initial comment was light-hearted, I can't help what you make of it.

    What particularly gives you the authority to speak for "the World as a whole," and why is this "not a big deal" when much evidence is to the contrary?

    I should have said the World in terms of cinema judging by films I have seen, also Gay is not just a male thing.

    You're taking us back to Square One. The thread has been about this for a while now. Please go back and read Nathan Lee's comments on the Dave Kehr website (which I quoted above) or read his thumbnail review in the current Film Comment.

    I did note that I hadn't read any reviews of the film before seeing it and writing my comments.

    I think we have to feel for both guys equally

    Yes I felt more for Ennis, that is my personal viewpoint and I did go on to explain why, what happened to Jack was tragic but when somebody dies you can't do anything for them, the real pain is felt by those left behind.

    I hope you are not classifying me with your comments regarding (liberal) attitude or is there something wrong with me in treating gay friends and relatives in the same way I treat the straight ones?

    I assume things aren't that easy even these days for people who are gay in the US? Over here things may be a little different, sure you've still got people who are homophobic just as we have racists and bigots of every description, most people I know of my own age and younger do not hold it against someone just because they are different in any way.

    What really bugs me is that you enjoyed the film and I enjoyed the film and although we may be viewing it from completely different perspectives it doesn't change the fact that it was a good story well told with fine performances and good direction. The fact that you're gay may make it a hell of a lot more relevent to you, if by chance a love story is made that has personal relevence to me, I'm sure I'll get more out of it than you would.

    Cheers Trev.
    Last edited by trevor826; 01-07-2006 at 05:52 PM.
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  6. #51
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    trevor,

    I'm not trying to attack you--my intention is purely to address the issues.I don't think empathy is a direct function of personal relevence; if it were, we'd be awfully limited in what we responded to, as maybe some audiences are. I don't see that you are any more qualified to speak for the whole film world than for the world as a whole. Your generalizations about "things" being not "that easy" or otherwise seem pointless and vapid to me, but I am happy that younger people are mostly cool with gayness nowadays, you're right there, that's very true and a great thing. But the more there's liberalization, the more there's backlash. San Francisco is the gay mecca, but there are hate crimes in San Francisco. That's part of how it works.


    Oscar, Good quotes.

    Graham Fuller's brings up the fallout aspect, which is not so much in the story but is in the movie. A radio discussion I heard this morning brought that out. Façade marriages forced upon gay people by homophobia have led to a lot of pain for the others involved. Thus straight people trapped in marriages with gay people, or their offspring who themselves saw and felt that pain the situation caused, are also responding to this movie, which might turn out to be as much a landmark in this country as Lee Tamahori's Once Were Warriors was in New Zealand for its portrayal of alcoholic spousal abuse (for example).

    Jessica Winter--hairy midlifers? That ain't romantic, man. People en masse like to identify with matinee idols, that's the way mainstream movies work. You reach a wider audience through more generically perfect looking people. Otherwise you're going indie. She makes the same mistake as Koresky.

    Koresky's point I think has been answered by Nathan Lee et al. in the Dave Kehr website discussion of Brokeback. Tropical Malady was seen by a relative handful of people, so to call it "The year['s] most transgressive homo love story" is fine, but gets us no further. Things done on a mainstream mass appeal level are far more transgressive (or "radical") even when what they show is milder, because they affect a relatively huge audience (but I haven't seen Tropical Malady, so I can't comment specifically on it).

    Nathan Lee's latest salvo is stated to shock, but I am with him all the way. I have rarely seen a better example because I understand something about this topic for once, of the way the mainstream critics misread stuff and sweep all minority interests under the carpet. I still don't know if they do it willfully or not. I think not. But that doesn't help or excuse it.

  7. #52
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    What a View!

    BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN
    Written by Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossana
    Directed by Ang Lee


    Before the accolades began falling around Ang Lee’s modern western, hype had already planted its spurs into the public’s anticipation. It was becoming known as “The Gay Cowboy Movie.” Yes, it’s gay and yes, the leads are cowboys but that title doesn’t do justice to the love that grows between these two men throughout the span of a twenty-year period. A love that lasts that long despite every challenge is the foundation of a good home. It cannot be explained or defined; it merely is. The fact that it is between two men is not relevant. All that matters is that the love itself lives on and the two affected by that pull are man enough to face it.

    Brokeback Mountain is a quiet film that takes place in a simpler time. Conversations don’t run long or deep; the buildings in town are no more than two stories high; and work involves using your hands when you can find it. And if you were a man, you made sure you found that work to ensure having enough money to raise the family you were about to create. There was no time to waste wondering about where your life could take you as the life that you had brought with it certain responsibilities. If that meant herding sheep up on Brokeback Mountain all summer, then you made sure you were the first in line to get that job. The first two in line for the job here are Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist (Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, respectively).

    Ennis and Jack meet each other in silence outside an office where they await work orders. And though they say nothing until they both have the job and are sharing a drink in celebration, they sneak glances when the other isn’t looking. It isn’t long before they’re on the mountain, a mountain of immense beauty with lively rivers and protective forestry. The sheep they are herding move up the mountain in waves and flow like the river they walk alongside. And once the two men, their dog and the hundreds of sheep have reached their camp, the foundation of love begins to be laid down. Amidst the purity of the nature that surrounds them, something innately natural begins to emerge, tying these two men together in a way they had never expected. They build themselves a home without even realizing as one tends to the camp all day while the other goes out to labour with the sheep. When Jack no longer wants to eat beans, Ennis makes sure to get soup despite his distaste for it. When Ennis cuts his head after being thrown from his horse, Jack is there with a wet towel to wipe away the blood. Their caring is shown through actions that come without thinking. They may not be able to verbalize the compassion one has for the other but the words aren’t necessary anyway. The trust they build opens the door for the men to share about their past lives and future hopes, neither having felt this safe with someone else before. And as their intimacy deepens, they are seen wearing less clothing, lingering longer before looking away until, on one cold night, Ennis joins Jack in the tent for a night that changes their lives forever.

    It is one thing to walk around all day after you’ve had sex the night before when you weren’t expecting to. It is a whole other thing when you’ve had that sex with someone of the same sex when you didn’t think that was who you were. And it is yet another thing entirely when that someone is someone you care about. This turmoil can be read all over the face of Ennis, played with a fierce stoicism by Ledger whose silence screams how deeply he internalizes his confusion. Jack on the other hand, will not say how much he loves Ennis but will sing loud and proud about his happiness. And though the two will reach an understanding that their lives are not complete without each other, the complicated nature of their relationship creates a direct contrast to the simplicity that surrounds them. Consequently, this complexity seeps into their regular every day lives, threatening everything they’ve worked for.

    The women of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN give varied perspectives on how it was to be married to Ennis & Jack throughout all those years. As Ennis’ wife, Alma, Michelle Williams, in a revelatory and eruptive performance, looks used and defeated as the years press on. She is introduced as boisterous and as a lover who might actually have a chance of getting into Ennis’ heart. In time, the obvious nature of Ennis’ relationship with Jack becomes as impossible to ignore as her disgust is to put into words. In drastic contrast, Jack’s marriage to Lureen (Anne Hathaway) is transactional. Neither feigns any love for the other and both are content with their arrangement. In fact, Jack has found a woman man enough to rationalize being married to a woman. Lureen’s lack of interest in her husband leaves Hathaway with a cold, distant performance while Williams’ performance is fueled by so many inner conflicts – love for her husband, hatred for his infidelity, disgust over his homosexuality, fear for her future and her children’s future – that she always looks unsettled, tense and desperate.

    Outside world left outside, Lee’s love story is both tender and tragic. Gustavo Santaolalla’s somber acoustic guitar score carries you gently along for the journey as it exposes all the trappings life has to offer. Ennis himself says it best when he says, “If you can’t fix it, you gotta stand it.” And this certainly applies to his career of unsteady work or loveless marriage. Jack knows better though. Jack knows that Ennis and him have what it takes to have the good life, that they’re love is the kind that everyone wishes they had. Theirs is a love is that helps you through your problems if you let it grow but it is also a love that brings you nothing but trouble if you keep it all boxed up.

    BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN is an important film and one that I’ve been looking forward to all year. It is a film that transcends its homosexual imagery allowing for the communication of the basic elements of the story to reach the viewer, any viewer. I took a deep breath before watching in an attempt to remove some of my expectations but I’m glad to say that it was everything I had hoped for it to be. Lee has created a benchmark film about how love can take hold of any two people at any time. I cried three times before the credits ran and was barely able to speak after the lights came up. My big, tall cowboy hat is off to you, Mr. Lee. A
    Last edited by mouton; 01-21-2006 at 06:43 PM.
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  8. #53
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    Re: What a View!

    Originally posted by mouton
    The fact that it is between two men is not relevant.
    Brace yourself for Knipp's retort to this. Ooh, I just can't wait.

  9. #54
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    I'm not terribly worried ... although he seems pretty adamant about this one. However, I feel it a testament to the filmmaker that he is able to convey human emotion to an audience that might simply get stuck on the imagery of two men as after all the story is about love, not about sexuality. We shall see; thanks for the heads up!
    I have no idea what I'm doing but incompetence has never prevented me from plunging in with enthusiasm.
    - Woody Allen

  10. #55
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    I HAVE ONLY ADMIRATION FOR WHAT MOUTON WROTE

    No, mouton, you have nothing to worry about from me. I don't feel the objections Jubis anticipated because you wrote a beautiful, understanding and generous review, truly one of the best and most touching I've read.

    And you do justice to the special sexual element here very effectively when you say
    It is one thing to walk around all day after you’ve had sex the night before when you weren’t expecting to. It is a whole other thing when you’ve had that sex with someone of the same sex when you didn’t think that was who you were. And it is yet another thing entirely when that someone is someone you care about.
    But the part in the review that impresses me the most is this:
    They build themselves a home without even realizing as one tends to the camp all day while the other goes out to labour with the sheep. When Jack no longer wants to eat beans, Ennis makes sure to get soup despite his distaste for it. When Ennis cuts his head after being thrown from his horse, Jack is there with a wet towel to wipe away the blood. Their caring is shown through actions that come without thinking. They may not be able to verbalize the compassion one has for the other but the words aren’t necessary anyway. The trust they build opens the door for the men to share about their past lives and future hopes, neither having felt this safe with someone else before. And as their intimacy deepens, they are seen wearing less clothing, lingering longer before looking away until, on one cold night, Ennis joins Jack in the tent for a night that changes their lives forever.
    Wow! You saw it all. That whole paragraph about the relationship is beautifully written. All I can say is that you underplay the pain that comes for all concerned over the years when the two men marry and their families are set to one side and society is an unseen threat to their relationship all the time But you describe the development of that relationship most perceptively and write about your strong response to the movie with emotional honesty. Finally somebody really makes clear on this site how moving Brokeback Mountain can be to audiences. You captured that, and how the relationship develops without words, better than I did. You also describe the "pretty scenery" in a way that shows me better than I saw how it's integral to the love story. Bravo!

    Another good line among many:
    This turmoil can be read all over the face of Ennis, played with a fierce stoicism by Ledger whose silence screams how deeply he internalizes his confusion.
    Beautifully put.

    I loved the generosity and enthusiasm of this review and have absolutely no problem with anything in it. In this context, the statement that it doesn't matter that they're two men works fine. It's not discounting what the relationship is, only saying that love is love.

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    Chris, you honestly just made my day. Your comments helped remove any doubt I was having about trying to convey how I truly felt about this film. It is truly haunting and tragic. And I agree with you completely about underplaying the other aspects of the film. Perhaps, I will revisit it later. Thank you again.
    I have no idea what I'm doing but incompetence has never prevented me from plunging in with enthusiasm.
    - Woody Allen

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    I was just saying what I thought but I'm glad you liked it.

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    Here is my review

    I know you will disagree with many aspects of my review but this is how I saw it.

    BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN

    Directed by Ang Lee (2005)

    "We kiss in a shadow. We hide from the moon. Our meetings are few and over too soon…" - Rodgers and Hammerstein (The King and I)


    Based on a short story by Annie Proulx and adapted by Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana, Brokeback Mountain is the heartbreaking story of the unfulfilled love between two men set in America's contemporary West. Directed by Ang Lee and beautifully shot in the Alberta Rockies by Cinematographer Rodrigo Prieto, the film has an epic quality, but is also a very intimate and complex human drama. While Brokeback Mountain is, in some respects, a classic love story with its nostalgia for the defining moment of first love, it is also the first mainstream film to depict gay men without exaggerated effeminate characteristics and to convey the rampant homophobia that exists in Middle America.

    Set in Wyoming in the early 60s, Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) and Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal) meet when they are both young ranch hands working together protecting a flock of sheep in the Brokeback Mountains. One is garrulous and outgoing, the other inarticulate and repressed. Heath Ledger's performance has been critically acclaimed and it is strong. He captures the confusion, the longing, and the profound sadness of a person who has been living a lie. Though proclaiming they are not "queer", the two men form a relationship that expresses itself in a sudden physical intercourse (surprisingly without any normal first-time experimentation). They have no language to describe their feelings but know that something vital has taken place and that their lives will never be the same. Separated at the end of the summer, the two men go their separate ways, trying to hold their affair as an insignificant blip but knowing otherwise.

    Jack marries Lureen (Anne Hathaway), the daughter of a wealthy farm-equipment salesman and Ennis is married to Alma (Michelle Williams), a convenience store worker. Both have settled into a conventional lifestyle but as the years pass, in spite of wives and children, their inarticulate longing for each other has not disappeared but has grown more solid. After four years, they meet again. When the two men embrace and exchange kisses by the side of the house, Alma catches a glimpse of their passion but is shocked into a silence that remains over the coming years. As the two camp out in the wilderness, Jack suggests they leave their families and live together on a ranch, but Ennis is unwilling to commit to the potential danger that such an arrangement might entail, recounting a story about a rancher who was dragged to his death because he dared to live with another man.

    Over the next two decades, the lovers meet as often as they can as Ennis tells his wife he is going on fishing trips, a story she suddenly rejects during a Thanksgiving dinner. Eventually, Alma divorces Ennis because she cannot confront his double life. Instead of providing an opening for a commitment to Jack, however, their love remains unattainable because of money problems and fears of homophobic reprisals. Though the ending has an undeniable power, I did not experience any deep connection with the characters. I understand the limitations imposed by the restricted emotional range of the men in the novel, yet the fact that neither developed very much in the way of conversation, understanding, or intimacy over a long period of time did not enhance my emotional involvement with the film.

    Although the mincing stereotypes have disappeared, they have been replaced by regional stereotypes as well as by tight-lipped cowboy "Marlboro Man" stereotypes. Sadly, the women are little more than ciphers, defined only by their long-suffering relationship to their husbands. While many tears are being shed (justifiably) over the men's lives of isolation and unfulfillment, let me also shed a tear for the wives who expected love and commitment from their husbands, and for the children who will grow up without a father figure to nurture them.

    Nevertheless, Brokeback Mountain's importance as a cultural statement cannot be denied, and those involved with the film should be acknowledged for their courage. While it is an honest film that may act as a catalyst for change, it should also be noted that there are no gay people involved in the project, no gay actors, producers, or directors and that coming out in Hollywood still means the loss of key roles for most actors. Even if change in people's attitudes does not happen overnight, however, the film will strike a responsive chord with those who have gone through life hiding their true feelings, and may bring the day one step closer when they can "kiss in the sunlight and say to the sky: "Behold and believe what you see! Behold how my lover loves me!"

    GRADE: B+
    "They must find it hard, those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority" Gerald Massey

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    Re: I can't say I "disagree"; I'm just sad.

    Originally posted by Chris Knipp
    I'm sorry you can't relate more to the two main characters, apparently because they are inarticulate and handsome.
    Chris, tell me where I said I couldn't relate to the characters becuase they are handsome. I said I was not as emotionally involved as I might have been because I did not experience much in the way of intimacy, understanding, or growth over a period of 20 years. Frankly, I didn't find them to be very interesting.
    It's not true that these are the first mainstream movie gay men who aren't effeminate. Tom Hanks in Philadelphia (1993) wasn't.
    I guess that qualifies although it isn't a gay love story but more of a courtroom drama.
    Despite being a landmark, I don't think the movie (or its source) were exactly meant to be about "the rampant homophobia that exists in Middle America." The story is far too specific to be about something so general as that -- though the movie can make people think about it. I don't think Brokeback Mountain is in "Middle America" at all since it's the Southwest, unless you define "Middle Amerca" as everything between New York and the West Coast.
    I define Middle America more as a state of mind than a geographical location.
    BUt I don't see why the kids necessarily are growing up "without a father figure to nurture them." I'm sure you don'g mean to imple that gay men can't be good parents, and that isn't something that's in the movie. In fact Ennis's only strong relationship at the end is with his daughter. I hope we'd agree a gay person can be a good parent. And around here there are clearly divorces where both parents still do a fine job of nurtuing their kids.
    I expressed a sadness in my review for all parties concerned. Obviously ( to me at any rate) there was a feeling of isolation and disconnection in the relationship, not the nurturing environment required to bring up kids. Having had some experience in the matter I would say that a relationship to work requires communication, committment, and honesty. Neither of those was present here. I'm not passing any judgments here just expressing my sadness. It's a sad movie, n'est-ce pas?
    You say this is from a short story but further down you call it a "novel," and the phrase "Set in Wyoming in the early 60s" (it's set in Wyoming and Texas in the Sixties and Seventies) is a dangling modifier.
    Pardon my dangling modifier.
    "They must find it hard, those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority" Gerald Massey

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    15,882
    If this satisfies you that's fine, though your can't exactly define what Philadelphia is about and what "Middle America" means just however you want. I've replied already.

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