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Thread: Guilty Pleasures

  1. #46
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    As defined by you, Taxi Driver and City of God (and Natural Born Killers) qualify as my "guilty pleasures" because: a) I consider them exploitative and/or immoral and/or irresponsible, and b) I derive enormous pleasure from them, having watched Taxi and Killers several times and planning to watch City again when the dvd is released. I experience guilt watching them.
    That's exactly right. But I don't find that this happens to me very often -- that (b) happens, but (a) remains. If I derive a lot of pleasure from a movie, I trust my gut reaction, and I don't consider it "exploitive and/or immoral and/or irresponsible" any more, if I had at first. This may seem odd, but usually if a movie is to me "exploitive and/or immoral and/or irresponsible" I know that instinctively at once, and I derive little or no pleasure from it. The evaluation, "exploitive and/or immoral and/or irresponsible," is probably out there, but not necessarily mine. I have to base my sense of the quality, moral, intellectual, and aesthetic, of a movie on my own gut reaction to it -- not on an external, received set of values or critical assessments. For me, (a) and (b) coming together and remaining together on repeated viewings is as rare as a solar eclipse.

    My evaluations of movies aren't purely a matter of gut reactions, but of the interplay between those and the whole context -- which ideally our discussions enlarge. Our discussions hopefully enrich our point of view and may cause modifications in how we evaluate and respond to movies. Otherwise we'd just be spinning out a web of self centeredness, talking to hear ourselves talk.

    TAXI DRIVER is perhaps the best film ever made that promotes revenge as a desirable course of action and that presents the avenger as a community hero in that beautifully shot, morally vacant finale.
    I don't see, myself, how Taxi Driver "promotes revenge as a desirable course of action." I don't read the narrative that way at all. Travis Bickle isn't a character I identify with. He is pathological; a psychopath; not a free agent but the pawn of his own inarticulate complexes. His revenge doesn't seem in any sense a "desirable" solution. If he becomes a "community hero," that's by accident. He deserves no credit for it and therefore is not to be emulated. If you find the finale "morally vacant," as we do, how can we say that the movie "promotes revenge"?

    P.s. I notice that the U.S. DVD of Henry Bean's The Believer (starring Ryan Gosling) is finally out, and I hope more people will see this bold and powerful movie.
    Last edited by Chris Knipp; 06-25-2003 at 12:15 PM.

  2. #47
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    And don't forget Death Wish!

    A companion and I were recently discussing films that made us physically ill. One was Eraserhead, whilst another was The Sentinel. Has anyone you know gotten sick like this due to a film?
    "So I'm a heel, so what of it?"
    --Renaldo the Heel, from Crimewave

  3. #48
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    TAXI DRIVER

    Originally posted by Chris Knipp
    I don't see, myself, how Taxi Driver "promotes revenge as a desirable course of action." I don't read the narrative that way at all. If he becomes a "community hero," that's by accident. He deserves no credit for it and therefore is not to be emulated.
    TAXI DRIVER doesn't convict Bickle or even place him on trial, after killing everyone in sight at the brothel. He is declared a hero by everyone in the film who's still alive, even the sensible woman played by Ms. Shepherd. Iris's father writes a letter read offscreen: Unfortunately we cannot afford to come to New York again to thank you in person, or we surely would". Newspaper headlines on Bickle's wall: "Taxi Driver Hero to Recover" and such. This is a work of fiction, he is presented as a hero by Scorsese and Schrader, not "by accident". They are going out of their way to celebrate Bickle's carrying out his puritanical, vigilante fantasies with this ending. The film would be better had it ended with the overhead shot of the outcome of the massacre, allowing the viewer to ponder how society reacted to it.

    It was interesting for me to learn that Marty changed Schrader's script to tone way down Bickle's racism by having several racist remarks written for him excised or said by other characters. Also at least one of those killed by Bickle in Schrader's script were African-American, but not in the movie.

    Some perspective: I am still in awe of what Scorsese, Schrader, De Niro and Herrmann (his last score) have accomplished here. TAXI DRIVER is still in my Top 10 for '76 but I am bothered by its message, for the reasons stated above.

    the U.S. DVD of Henry Bean's The Believer (starring Ryan Gosling) is finally out
    I rented it based on your recommendation and enjoyed it. Thanx.

  4. #49
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    Though Scrosese is a great cinematic figure in this country, and contributes a lot, I'm not much of a fan. His movies aren't much fun, and I don't know why. Ikiru might be said to be not much fun, but it's uplifting and wonderful.

    Taxi Driver seems to me very dated now. It may be that I see it differently because I saw it when it was new and was excited by it then, because it was close to actual events of the time and its methods seemed fresh, and of course De Niro had such conviction, but the whole context is so different now, it just doesn't hold up.

    It seemed to me at the time, and it seems to me now, that all the congratulation Bickle gets at the end is very, very ironic from our point of view. It's a grim irony, to be sure. You might--we might , you and I--need to consult directly with Scorsese on this, to see what his intention was. I cannot believe that he would agree with your interpretation. The mere fact that he toned down the racism in Schrader's screenplay doesn't mean he was making Bickle "okay." It means that he was trying to make it harder for us to detach from him; to make the whole sequence of events, including the approbation for his act, more convincing to the general audience, and therefore more troubling. And he was toning down Schrader's characteristic shrillness and glibness.

    But that either Martin Scorsese himself, or Paul Schrader, is recommending revenge of this madman-stalker sort, and the shooting up of brothels, I just find extremely far fetched, and I'm surprised that you think this. I may not be a Scorsese fan, but I respect his intelligence and his civilized outlook, which I suspect is as outraged by Bickle's behavior as ours is.

    Top Ten for 1976 -- well, of course, yes.

    I'm glad you liked The Believer, which I think extraordinary, and it's sad that it's so little known; the DVD may remedy that somewhat.
    Last edited by Chris Knipp; 06-27-2003 at 01:23 AM.

  5. #50
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    Great discussions

    We really have intelligent people on this site.

    I've been so busy lately I can only read new posts.
    When will I have more time?!?!

    If you've seen Taxi Driver more than 3 times or are familiar with Scorsese's body of work the films do become dated (oscar) and lose their power. They settle into the "beautiful excercise" category.
    That reminds me of a friend who asked me if I still find THE SHINING scary after all the times I've screened it. I said no because I like the film and it's maker too much to be scared.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  6. #51
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    Re: Great discussions

    Originally posted by Johann
    We really have intelligent people on this site.
    People who have watched a lot of good films; some like you and me, interested in "catching up" with cinema history, despite the inherent difficulties. I do wish for more members free of subtitle-phobia. Or is it sometimes that folks watch movies simply to be entertained, and comforted by films that validate their views, rejecting any challenges(artistic and otherwise). Imagine 20% of the Matrix audience giving RUSSIAN ARK a chance and getting turned on and provoking a cultural revolution. Dream On.
    The way pmw has designed the site (easy to quote others and highlight text,etc.) facilitates debate.

    I've been so busy lately I can only read new posts.
    When will I have more time?!?!

    I hope your moving is going smoothly, and that you find time to post. The latter applies to docraven and cinemabon too.

    Scorsese's films do become dated and lose their power.
    The only thing I find dated in TAXI DRIVER is NYC, particularly Times Square, now Disney-fied, and the decreased visibility of the sex industry, now transformed by home video and computer technology. TAXI DRIVER is now a visually brilliant period film.

  7. #52
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    Judge the Film

    Originally posted by Chris Knipp
    But that either Martin Scorsese himself, or Paul Schrader, is recommending revenge of this madman-stalker sort, and the shooting up of brothels, I just find extremely far fetched, and I'm surprised that you think this. I may not be a Scorsese fan, but I respect his intelligence and his civilized outlook

    I am a Scorsese fan and consider him the greatest American director of the past 30 years (as measured by the number of outstanding films he's directed in that span). An intelligent, civilized man. I urge everyone to give the forgotten THE KING OF COMEDY a chance, and to enroll in Marty's course: A PERSONAL JOURNEY WITH MARTIN SCORSESE THROUGH AMERICAN MOVIES, out on dvd. I wouldn't dare judge him based on my objections about the last three minutes of one, 27-year-old film. Objections based directly on what's on the screen. I'd never judge a film based on the artist's biographical details, but these sometimes lead to insights about the work.

    Consider Schrader, his scripts, particularly the early ones, show a pattern of puritanical/conservative views and rescue-and-revenge themes. He was raised strict Calvinist, never allowed to watch a film until age 18. When he moved from Michigan to attend UCLA film school, he was ill-prepared. The result were years of depression, moral confusion, and drug addiction. In interviews he explains he was "suicidal and quite enamored of guns" when he wrote TAXI. The first film he both wrote and directed, HARDCORE('79), details yet another rescue from and revenge on the porn underworld, this time with a midwestern Calvinist hero. His script for ROLLING THUNDER('77), a film now known mostly because Tarantino named his production company after it, features a Vietnam vet taking revenge on perverts who killed his wife and son. The carnage takes place...inside a whorehouse. Richard Gere is an object of pity in AMERICAN GIGOLO whose sole reference to homosexuality is not a bit "friendly". The views of the Labor Movement and the counter-culture in BLUE COLLAR and PATTY HEARST are one-sided. Schrader is a good writer, perhaps most apparent in the Scorsese-commissioned scripts for RAGING BULL and THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. It is possible that he thinks Keitel and co. deserved it because they're "scum"(Taxi Driver). But what concerns me is that the film believes the avenging Bickle deserves the admiration and gratitude of society.

  8. #53
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    MORE ABOUT TAXI DRIVER. WHY FEEL GUILTY?

    I still think this deserves some further research into Scorsese's and Schrader's intentions in Taxi Driver, but I have not found the answer to that question. I also still think, Oscar, that you are taking the whole movie too unironically, as if Travis Bickle were somehow a figure of admiration for the filmmakers. That admiration, if there is any, is surely very uneasy -- as, perhaps, is yours.

    Jonathan Rosenbaum http://www.chireader.com/movies/arch...496/04016.html describes Tavis Bickle as a "twisted self-portrait" of Schrader, and points out that De Niro made creative additions such as the famous "You talkin' to me?" vignette which may make the picture even more luirid. In collaborating with Schrader so often, Scorsese knew what he was doing; obviously the director too has a taste for the Manichean and the lurid, and both men have one foot in European High Culture and the other in Hollywood pulp.

    I recall, Oscar, that you listed Taxi Driver as one of your "guilty pleasures," and that that's what we were originally talking about. It isn't one of mine, for various reasons: not much of a pleasure, though it was one once; not "period" but dated, which of course is quite different; and nothing I'd be guilty about even if it were still a pleasure, because I see the movie's viewpoint ironically. Scorsese and Schrader are playing with the extremes of Schrader's Calvinistic indoctrination and parodying them, in my view; "playing with" does indicate enjoying, but "parodying" means distancing. That there may be an interaction between playing and parodying means that the movie is ambiguous in a way that is somewhat morally suspect, if not all the way so.

    Ebert http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/taxi.html focuses in his discussion of Taxi Driver on the movie's strictly limited point of view and asserts that the finale is an ambiguous resolution, and only one for the main character, if that.

    As I said before, whether or not one thinks Scorsese's movies hold up he is an important figure for his many contributions such as you mention, Oscar, to our knowledge of cinematic history. I am not making any judgments about him on the basis of biographical details, nor am I judging Taxi Driver on the basis of the last few minutes. I wouldn't say that "the film believes" anything. It challenges our beliefs.
    Last edited by Chris Knipp; 06-28-2003 at 06:41 PM.

  9. #54
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    Taxi Driver/Scorsese/Art vs. Life

    I don't know where I heard this quote but here it is:

    Never Trust The Artist But Always Trust The Art

    (Fellini perhaps..)
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  10. #55
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    Fair enough. I've been trying to oppose the "Intentional Fallacy" all along.

    Johnny Depp: "Don't trust nobody nowhere. Ever."




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  11. #56
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    Alright, I just saw Taxi Driver in film class, and I honestly can't understand some all of these perceptions everyone exhibits. I certainly don't view it as a film that "promotes revenge as a desirable course of action." What the hey was this guy revenging?

    It just didn't seem like my cup of tea, as after discussing it with friends, we agreed that we were all "weirded out."
    "So I'm a heel, so what of it?"
    --Renaldo the Heel, from Crimewave

  12. #57
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    Gloomy NYC

    The 70's had some dark cinematic moments...

    How about Marty in the back of the cab?
    That "pussy/gun speech" is pretty harsh.
    I can see why the Academy didn't give him the gold and why you might be "weirded out"...
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  13. #58
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    I think Taxi Driver, like Easy Rider and various others, tried too hard to be timely, and in doing so, set itself up to become dated, which now it is. As they used to say, "You had to be there."

  14. #59
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    Originally posted by HorseradishTree
    What the hey was this guy revenging?
    Iris' innocence, of course. In doing so, he's made a hero and receives the respect and admiration of the community.

    It just didn't seem like my cup of tea, as after discussing it with friends, we agreed that we were all "weirded out."
    Meaning nothing, except you don't quite know yet how you feel about Taxi Driver.
    Last edited by oscar jubis; 10-28-2003 at 09:18 PM.

  15. #60
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    True, Oscar,Taxi Driver wouldn't be working right if it didn't weird you out. It certainly had a big impact on me when I first saw it. But then when I resaw it recently, as I've said, I found it dated, felt I was revisiting a period. But Horseradish Tree's reaction shows it's still working, shaking people up.





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