The Matrix - Spoon-fed Symbolism

[tabuno]

I never got caught up in religion while watching "Matrix: Reloaded." I understand that there is prophecy, but that doesn't necessarily mean god or Catholicism at all. I looked at the movie as the tension between determinism (technological electronic, machines operating on cause and effect) and free-will and freedom (human creative thought and imagination). I also saw the battle between the multitude of diverse, dynamic capacity of the human and machine mind to undertake war and to fight in cyberspace as well as in physical reality. Each action seen promotes the idea of the the possibilities of virtual reality - something that is in sci fi terms - not fantasy - but feasible someday in the future. It is fascinating to see how fighting might occur, even as today, battles are being fought on the basis of cruise missiles, guided radar systems, soldiers are now possessed of advance communication and laser pointers. No, the Matrix: Reloaded captures both in spirit and vision the action and the principles that grip today's society and globle between humanity and technology, blending the uneasy blend together because just like oil and water they really must and do exist in our world and we must somehow come to appreciate it, adapt to it, or it may control us.

[Ilker81x]

Well said tabuno, and I won't say you're wrong.

But when dealing with the word "prophecy," there is indeed a religious connotation that becomes associated. I'll agree that I didn't see the religious angle as much in the sequel as there was in the original, but even in the issue of free will vs. determinism, there CAN be a religious parallel. Blasphemous as some may see it, I think the book by Kazantzakis (the movie by Scorcese, "The Last Temptation of Christ") address this issue of Christ as a man and as a divine figure, whether or not he truly had free will or if his fate was already determined. He was constantly doubting his place, and even many times tried to go against God, constantly contradicted his own arguments as time went on...while it's not completely religious since it's a work of fiction based on one person's interpretation of a religious event, the point can still be made that Christ may have dealt with the same problem. Is he free to make his own decision? Or is everything he does ordained? Does he have a choice? Does Neo have a choice?

I'll agree, however, that the sequel has less to do with religion than the first one did and that it did seem to address more issues towards technology's grip on humanity. That is definitely a good defense of the sequel as its own movie.

[stevetseitz]

>>The Christ-like references in "The Matrix" are pretentious because of the inherently violent nature of the film.<<

While I won't defend the meager philosophizing in either Matrix movie, I disagree with this assessment. Most of the violence committed by Neo and his gang took place in a "virtual reality" therefore it wasn't truly violence. Destroying a nasty program named Agent Smith isn't violating any of the 10 Commandments especially when the program was doing evil things to humans.

>> Leaving aside the fact that more wars have been fought in the name of religion than any other cause<<

I would disagree with you there. Most wars, including the Crusades, were fought for various economic and political reasons
with religion oft used as a scapegoat. The biggest killer of all is Democide: A government killing it's own citizens. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Kmer Rouge are examples of tyrants who killed millions.


>>"The Matrix" on the other hand is loaded with violence, all surrounding a central Christ-like figure who fights tyranny...with more weaponry in his coat than an army can carry a whole brigade.<<

Neo does have and use weaponry but, again, it takes place in the virtual world. Thus far, Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and the gang have simply fled at any sign of their machine enemies in the "real world" all while living deep underground like the Christians under Roman rule.

[Ilker81x]

I don't mean to be insulting, but at this point I have to say that to me, that was a pretty weak argument in defense of violence in a film. Just because it takes place in a virtual world doesn't mean it wasn't real. Maybe it wasn't real in the literal sense, but it still happened. First of all, the effects are the same...everytime a person is hurt or killed in the Matrix, they die in the real world. As explained in the first movie, the Matrix is a projection of the mind, and the body can't exist without the mind. Everytime a person dies in the Matrix, the machines lose one more person to control. And besides, from the standpoint of it being a film, we as the audience SEE violence. It doesn't matter if it's something taking place in the mind or in a dream, the message is still being delivered through violence. It would be equally blasphemous to claim that Jesus fantasized about murdering hundreds of Romans even though he didn't. Secondly, just because the agents are evil towards humans doesn't make it right for Neo to destroy them...evil begets evil. Did Jesus go and slaughter the Roman emperor or his soldiers for their injustice against the Jews? No...that was part of Jesus' message as I understand it. Violence was not the answer.

As for religion being the scapegoat in war...it doesn't matter whether or not it was the explicit reason...to do something "in the name" of something is to make the claim that that something is the reason, whether it really is or not. "In the name of humanity, you must die." It doesn't matter if that person is really killing someone because humanity deemed it necessary, it's what he says. You can say you're killing someone in the name of the king, but that's not necessarily the real reason you're killing that person. So what I said is true, wars have been fought in the name of religion, even if the real reasons were political and economical. As for government killing its own citizens, that's the case in "The Matrix" as well...the machines govern the planet (or rule, whichever term you want to use, it's all the same these days) and they use and abuse their human citizens.

Again, I don't mean to be insulting, but I find your argument to be less than convincing.

[stevetseitz]

>>I don't mean to be insulting, but at this point I have to say that to me, that was a pretty weak argument in defense of violence in a film. Just because it takes place in a virtual world doesn't mean it wasn't real.<<

That is exactly what it means.

>> Maybe it wasn't real in the literal sense, but it still happened. First of all, the effects are the same...everytime a person is hurt or killed in the Matrix, they die in the real world. As explained in the first movie, the Matrix is a projection of the mind, and the body can't exist without the mind.<<

The people that get killed in the Matrix yes, but the real enemy is the machines. There wasn't a lot of violence by Neo and the gang against other humans within the matrix. Trinity took out a few cops in the early scenes, Neo and Trinity shot up some security guards in the finale, but mostly they were trying to free other humans who were trapped within the matrix.

>>Everytime a person dies in the Matrix, the machines lose one more person to control. And besides, from the standpoint of it being a film, we as the audience SEE violence. It doesn't matter if it's something taking place in the mind or in a dream, the message is still being delivered through violence.<<

I'm not denying the violence. In fact, seeing Neo and Trinity dressed in black overcoats gunning down security guards gave me chills thinking of the murders at Columbine High school.

>> It would be equally blasphemous to claim that Jesus fantasized about murdering hundreds of Romans even though he didn't.<<

Maybe but that's not what the movie claims either.

>> Secondly, just because the agents are evil towards humans doesn't make it right for Neo to destroy them...evil begets evil.<<

You are talking about soul-less machines having moral equivalence with humans? That's preposterous. That's like saying it's evil to throw out a toaster because it burns your bread because "evil begets evil".

>> Did Jesus go and slaughter the Roman emperor or his soldiers for their injustice against the Jews? No...that was part of Jesus' message as I understand it. Violence was not the answer.<<

If you look at The Matrix in terms of "Tron" which has similarities, the violence within the matrix is a sort of contest of wills between the humans and machines. The machines set up the system so any blame is theirs.

>>Again, I don't mean to be insulting, but I find your argument to be less than convincing.<<

I don't take your difference of opinion to be an insult and I'm probably just being pedantic, but eastern and western religious symbolism is present in the "Matrix" movies. I just thought it wasn't very well done. A good film for christ symbolism is Sagal's "The Omega Man".

[Ilker81x]

I don't feel it was very well done either, I'll agree with that. But yes, it is definitely present, and I think it's poorly approached. Yes, it is chilling to see Neo and Trinity in those coats shooting away, but I think you're underplaying it. "A few" security guards? It seemed more like a small brigade really, there was plenty of competition. I can understand the intention of freeing more people, but still they are killing quite a few people to do it. There's also the case that the machines are soul-less...maybe in the human sense, but the more I listen to Agent Smith's rhetoric and his speeches, as coldly logical and mechanical they may seem, there's always the implication in movies such as "The Matrix" that this overdeveloped sense of logic is a force of evil. Yes, look at "Tron." The Master Control Program was a program, appropriating programs, gathering data and input, constantly growing...because that's what he's supposed to do, that's his function...but he's protrayed as this tyrannical ruler of the computer world. Also the toaster analogy...toasters are not given the level of control that the machines in "The Matrix" are given. It's like Skynet in "The Terminator." Skynet was plugged into every military computer with the function of controlling all military operations, planes, missiles etc...a toaster...just toasts. It's a matter of function...give the computer the capacity to control, and that control will go overboard because a computer has a very strict sense of logic. It's not evil in the sense that logic is evil, but that is the problem with logic...humans by nature are not very logical, and so when we assign power to a computer whose nature is the opposite of humans, it will seem evil, especially when the logical thing to do would be to remove that which is illogical. It's the implication of evil, as opposed to a literal sense of it like Satan or the Devil might seem to be.
Anyway...that's my view, and that's that. :)

[tabuno]

What's surpising in Matrix: Reloaded is the amount of sensuality and pure human flesh and pleasure is unloaded onto the audience in this movie. In some ways, I saw a dichotomy of both extremes...intellectual, rational, technical precision of emotionaless machines that create an image of humans virtual reality that is surprisingly real and normal with contemporary morality and stable, passionate existence (especially in the original movie and the pleasure of eating virtural food). And then in reality, reality the humans are depicted as a raw, primitive, orgy of human emotion and passion, an animal pack of almost sex-lust-craving, pulsating mass of energetic orgasms. Surprisingly I was almost rooting for the machines to win in their battle against the rising torrents of sexful bliss and mindless, irrationally lust.

[Ilker81x]

Interesting point tabuno. And it certain adds to the argument that the machines lean towards the side of logic and the rational, while humans are more lustful and irrational. I, however, cannot see this as a reason to root for the machines. Sure the scene was pretty steamy (I also think it was pretty tasteful considering the abundance of skin flicks and sexual extremity that goes on in a lot of movies these days), and some can argue that it's pretty animalistic...but y'know, human beings are animals, and oftentimes we are prone to animal action. A protective mother lifts a car to save her child...that's maternal instinct, but the key word is instinct...it's a primal response that is deeply rooted in the human condition. Sex is no different...sure there are levels of perversity, and in a symbolic sense one could perceive that scene as being equivalent to a bunch of wild dogs in heat that need to be broken up...but that's human nature. Everytime you go to a rave or a club, everytime you go to a party, there's a certain amount of sexual energy in the air. It's just more so in certain places and at certain times. It is symbolic, but I don't see it as something to make me think that the machines should win. But then again, Smith's argument to Morpheus near the end of the first movie could help your case too...we as humans are too hung up on pleasure and consumption...maybe so much so that we just need to be done away with. In the cycle of life, creatures do eventually become extinct...much of the time because another species ate them all for food...maybe that's our fate...the machines are just another addition to the Earth paradigm, and it's our role to slowly fade into existence at their hands. George Carlin once made this kind of argument that the Earth will heal itself as it has done for billions of years, and that we're arrogant to think that we're really a major threat since we're the ones who will die out long before the Earth does...maybe you're right tabuno. I don't really think so, but you could be.

[Prince Lazy I]

In the previous post:

"Don't get me wrong, I do have a lot of the problems with the supposedly 'mythic' nature of The Matrix but I do find it inspiring that someone's willing to attempt to bring the myth back to life, if not the religion."

That's about right, Brett: while I think the Wachowskis are doggypaddling furiously, way out of depth as they attempt to progress from the beginner's end of the mythpool, I'm still kind of glad they're trying something a little more ambitious than BAM BAM BAM JIGGY JIGGY BAM BAM. I mean, it's hardly DONNIE DARKO, but at least they're trying.

And I have to say - anyone who doesn't get just a bit slack-jawed during the freeway sequence has probably forgotten the concept of fun.

Steve

[Ilker81x]

Very true Prince Lazy I, that freeway scene is meant to just be some good fun action. And I'll say that you're right that at least somebody is trying to bring the concept of a "myth" back into movies and that it does at least try to be something more than a standard shoot-'em-up with cool special effects and music.

My whole problem with "The Matrix" is that it's too derivative of other mythologies from other movies and stories that it hardly seems like somebody trying to bring back "myth" in movies, but more like somebody retelling another person's story with his own characters and maybe changing a coupla little details along the way to make it his own.

Take "Waterworld"...please. Haha. Arguably one of Kevin Costner's worst movies, and not generally regarded as the greatest sci-fi epic of all time, but it had all the elements of a myth. This unknown place in the world where dry land still existed, these evil people who were trying to steal this secret, the seemingly uncaring nomad who becomes a hero, the little girl with the map tattooed on her; all of these make for a great mythical story...but it didn't work. "Waterworld" was good in the concept, but poor in its execution. I couldn't help but watch it and feel like they were trying to recreate "Dune," just in the opposite climate.

Same thing with "The Matrix." All the elements of myths we already know. I can forgive the Wachowski brothers since they have made comments in the past that "The Matrix" is just meant to be a live-action Manga, so for it to resemble "Akira" or "Ghost in the Shell" may not really be accidental, but at the same time it makes it a little less enjoyable because it becomes a rehash or a parody instead of something of its own.

Yes, it is admirable that "The Matrix" tries to bring a sense of mythology to what could have been another boring action movie, but if the mythology does not become something of its own and separates itself from others, then it becomes weak and obsolete, and not worth paying attention to.

[Prince Lazy I]

"Very true Prince Lazy I, that freeway scene is meant to just be some good fun action. And I'll say that you're right that at least somebody is trying to bring the concept of a "myth" back into movies and that it does at least try to be something more than a standard shoot-'em-up with cool special effects and music.

My whole problem with "The Matrix" is that it's too derivative of other mythologies from other movies and stories that it hardly seems like somebody trying to bring back "myth" in movies, but more like somebody retelling another person's story with his own characters and maybe changing a coupla little details along the way to make it his own. "

Nailed it in one, Annapolis. About two minutes into the "Zion" sequence I stopped trying to count the borrowings, appropriations, hommages, rip-offs etc, and just kicked back, let it all wash over me. And that's the way to do it with "Reloaded"!

Speaking of bringing back the mythic into movies... isn't Spielberg resurrecting Indy in a coupla years time? What'll it be this time: the Spear of Destiny? OK, that would be uncomfortably close to the Grail, but it's a helluva myth-arc to tap into: Constantine, Charlemagne, Hitler... Professor Jones!

[Ilker81x]

Hasn't Spielberg been trying to bring back Indiana Jones for the past ten years? Kudos to him if he can do it successfully, but...I'm not holding my breath.

As for "The Matrix," I was one of the few in my dorm who didn't like the first one when it came out. I remember phrases like, "I liked it better when it was called 'Johnny Mnemonic,'" being thrown around until they all came back saying it was the best sci-fi movie ever. I saw it with them when they went the second or third time...almost got the crap beaten outta me 'cuz I dared go against the group consciousness and said, "It's not that good." Oh well...people love it, let 'em have it. I think it's just a good fun action movie, that's all I'll ever take it for, and in my mind any attempt to see it as something more (or at least trying to convince me of that) is a practice in futility.

[Prince Lazy I]

100% with you on this one, Ike. I hope (!) I know profundity when I see it, and I also know pretty well where to go look for it; and while it's always cool to find it where you don't expect it, seeing it where it isn't leaves one just ever-so-slightly open to embarrassment when popular opinion's had time to settle down. Not that embarrassment is the worst thing that can befall one - far from it! On the whole, it's probably better to be naively enthusiastic than a great grey post-ironic wet blanket. So I really don't mind the Matrix-hype in that respect... I just say, "yes, it is good fun, isn't it - have you seen Donnie Darko yet, by the way?"

[Ilker81x]

I haven't seen "Donnie Darko" yet, but it's been recommended to me enough times that it's on my list of movies to see.

[cinemabon]

For fans of The Matrix, I highly recommend the new animated DVD released last week, "Animatrix". There are nine short animated films that will blow you away. The opening one is as startling in its 3-D renderings as anything done in 3-D to date. Though I must admit, that when it comes to expression, people still resemble TV's MAX agent than say a "Gollum" from Lord of the Rings. Budget screams everything.

Still there is great imagination at work here along with very exciting soundtracks filled with all kinds of sound and music mixes that will delight many palates.

After watching the opening about a zillion times, (the other "samurai" anime is also excellent), it begins to make one wonder about the sensuality of the product. How close to detail will they go? They cut out the black guy in his underwear... I guess we aren't ready to see the male side of the equation yet... yes, we are all just too immature for that. However, the girls butt was perfect, with the red thong... now that's entertainment. I guess Snow White is a long way off right about now.

This DVD is state of the art animation at its finest for any subject in 2003. I can't wait to see what 2004 will bring.