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Thread: The Illustrious Peter Greenaway

  1. #16
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    Awesome man, check it out and post about it in The Seventh Seal
    thread (classic film).

    von Sydow back from the crusades, the Dance of Death, you should love it.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  2. #17
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    Finally found a couple of Greenaway films to rent: The Pillow Book on DVD and 8 1/2 Women on VHS. Have only watched Pillow so far, here are my thoughts:

    It's a visually gorgeous film. I was expecting that based on what I read here, but there were still several scenes where I was really amazed. And it's not just the cinematography alone, but also its combination with the editing the music and the way the scenes were written. The scene at the end where the publisher receives the final chapter and realizes he's going to die, was beautifully filmed. One example of many. I'm gonna watch that scene again.

    Also, it wasn't nearly as desolate in the "relevance or resonance" areas as I had expected. I found it touching, this woman's regard for the tradition that her father had passed to her, and then the honor she felt in revenging the fate the publisher had bestowed on her father. And, of course, the central theme of passion, both physical and non-physical. I liked her husband, who sat around and shot arrows at targets and told her she read too much. She left him.

    Basically, I was expecting a two-hour film showing a tree growing. Maybe that's what Greenaway's early films consisted of, but this was much more.

    And then there's Ewan McGregor and what he brought to the film. I guess you could see why the publisher liked him...

  3. #18
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    Brace yourself for 8 1/2 Women

    8 1/2 Women is a tribute to Fellini's 8 1/2.
    A father and son go to a screening after the death of wife/mother and decide to open up a brothel.

    It opens with scenes in a pachinko parlour and it may be harder to "enjoy" than Pillow Book, but I loved it. Lots of unerotic male nudity-hope you don't mind.
    And some scenes with dad and son are a little uncomfortable....

    Let me know your opinion! The Pillow Book is based on the actual Pillow Book written by Sei Shonigon.
    Last edited by Johann; 02-08-2004 at 06:57 PM.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  4. #19
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    Sorry Joann

    Sorry, I couldn't get into 8 1/2 Women. Might have helped if I had seen Fellini's 8 1/2 first? Couldn't get out of my "suburban frame of mind", I've got to work on my taxes today...

    I see there's been debate concerning Greenaway on the "Art and Audience" thread. I do appreciate him as a filmmaker; I did like "Pillow Book". 8 1/2 Women didn't seem as visually appealing, maybe b/c I had a VHS copy not DVD.

    I'll try again in the future when I'm in a less practical frame of mind.

  5. #20
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    No worries, man.

    8 1/2 Women is a really tough sell, and I don't hold it against you for not getting into it.

    I would say it's the most difficult Greenaway film to recommend, next to The Baby of Macon.

    If you see Macon, you're eligible for a cinematic-viewing medal of Bravery!
    Last edited by Johann; 02-17-2004 at 04:01 AM.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  6. #21
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    Originally posted by Johann
    No worries, man.

    8 1/2 Women is a really tough sell, and I don't hold it against you for not getting into it.

    I would say it's the most difficult Greenaway film to recommend, next to The Baby of Macon.

    If you see Macon, you're eligible for a cinematic-viewing medal of Bravery!
    Being eligible for a cinematic-viewing medal of Bravery myself, I have to wonder why you think the Baby of Macon is so difficult to recommend. I thought it was quite compelling in many respects. I'd certainly recommend it to anyone interested in the role of religion in cinema; of course, they do need to be aware of the gratuitous nature of Greenaway's approach.

    Also, if you don't hold it against JustaFied for criticizing Greenaway, why did you hold it against me in "Art and Audience"?
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
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  7. #22
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    OK I'm gonna try to be crystal clear here.

    JustaFied has demonstrated an eagerness to explore Greenaway. "Not getting into it" is not critcizing. I didn't get into Fellini's Roma, but my respect for the man is still sky-high.
    I practically have to arm-wrestle you when at the video store. I seem to recall a night where I was in the mood for
    a Truffaut film and we ended up with Ever After and Erin Brockovich (even if I enjoyed them).

    However, to your credit, you took to Kieslowski, Bergman's Persona, The Passion of Joan of Arc and Intolerance (which I honestly thought you would think of as torture).

    That said, the arguments in Art and Audience stem from the contradictions: you say the films are well crafted but lacking in moral fibre, (as if moral fibre is essential to great film). Greenaway is a great alternative- hell, the GREATEST alternative if you ask me- to mainstream kow-towing and standard watching practices.
    I guess you're not ready for all of the alternative films out there...
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  8. #23
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    Originally posted by Johann
    OK I'm gonna try to be crystal clear here.

    JustaFied has demonstrated an eagerness to explore Greenaway. "Not getting into it" is not critcizing. I didn't get into Fellini's Roma, but my respect for the man is still sky-high.
    I practically have to arm-wrestle you when at the video store. I seem to recall a night where I was in the mood for
    a Truffaut film and we ended up with Ever After and Erin Brockovich (even if I enjoyed them).
    Hey, I'll readily admit that sometimes when I study Greek and Hebrew for a living, I'm not in the mood to watch a movie in another language. Or, when I read all day, subtitles are not always my way of relaxing. Sometimes, I'm just in the mood to watch a fairy tale or see Julia Roberts strutting around.

    Originally posted by Johann
    However, to your credit, you took to Kieslowski, Bergman's Persona, The Passion of Joan of Arc and Intolerance (which I honestly thought you would think of as torture).
    I don't know why you thought I'd think Intolerance is torture. Its great filmmaking and it has an obvious religious dimension, which usually sucks me in... btw, you also forgot to mention the restored edition of Greed we watched (with all those still frames) ... or how about Tarkovsky's Nostalghia? ... you also neglect to mention that I was buying Criterion DVDs well before you started... I was no cinematic neophyte when I met you... The problem, J, is you never give me any credit when it comes to film... and I have no reason why, man. I've even introduced you to some great film that you were reluctant/skeptical to watch at first: Amadeus for one. So, dear friend, it's time to start giving me some credit... eh?

    Originally posted by Johann
    That said, the arguments in Art and Audience stem from the contradictions: you say the films are well crafted but lacking in moral fibre, (as if moral fibre is essential to great film). Greenaway is a great alternative- hell, the GREATEST alternative if you ask me- to mainstream kow-towing and standard watching practices.
    I disagree... contra Ebert and you, I think content is as important as style... what a picture says is nearly or just as important as how it says it. The greatest writer in the world can still write a terrible book while the worst can also write a masterpiece.

    Originally posted by Johann
    I guess you're not ready for all of the alternative films out there...
    See here you go again... I just finished complementing Greenaway on Baby of Macon (and you also know that I thought Pillow Book was quite interesting)... I just think that the man indulges in too many excesses that detract from the experience and quite frankly degrade the medium.

    I think you can't wrap your mind around the fact that it is possible to appreciate movies and critique them at the same time. You're a fundamentalist about movies... nobody can criticize your sacred scriptures (movies) without you raising hell about it.
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
    Martin Scorsese

  9. #24
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    I knew that last line was a firestarter...
    Just jabbin' ya with a stick, man.

    Yes, you do appreciate films of a much wider range than the average joe.

    I still don't see how you can "complement" Greenaway yet say he degrades the medium. How is that possible?
    You can't say "DaVinci has nice brush strokes but the painting sucks". The painting IS the brush strokes!
    How would you feel if someone said "you're academic, but you haven't learned anything". It's an insult.

    I like the guy but he's annoying.
    I like blue but I hate aqua.
    I want happiness but I prefer sadness.

    You see what I'm saying?
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Johann
    I still don't see how you can "complement" Greenaway yet say he degrades the medium. How is that possible?
    You can't say "DaVinci has nice brush strokes but the painting sucks". The painting IS the brush strokes!
    Because if DaVinci applies his talent to painting the grotesque it doesn't matter how expertly he handles the brush... the content remains the problem.

    Here's a pop-culture example: Christina Aguilera has one of the most beautiful singing voices I have heard from contemporary pop artists. But, she chooses to whore-it-up and uses her voice to sing songs like Genie in a Bottle. As a music critic, I can acknowledge Aguilera's gifted handling of the material; her ability to sing comfortably through an impressive vocal range; I might even admit to enjoying some of the songs she sings. But, also as a music critic, I have no qualms about saying that she could use her talents more effectively. She could stop contributing to the commercial exploitation of music and apply herself to singing music more befitting of her talents.

    Now, I'm not saying Greenaway's movies are to be equated with "Genie in a Bottle". Absolutely not!! (I cringe that I've actually managed to put the thought into a sentence.) Obviously, Greenaway does not go for pop-culture and canned formulas rather he swings the pendulum to the far opposite end and goes for the extremely inaccessible, bizarre, and grotesque. The crime, however, in a certain respect, is the same or similar.

    In any case, I do think you can understand the gist of the distinction I am trying to draw between the "how" and the "what." Greenaway excels at the "how" but leaves something to be desired in the "what".
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
    Martin Scorsese

  11. #26
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    Good enough

    I understand your position now. But if I may say, the "content" in Greenaway films is not as extreme as you say. The more you see the films the more you'll realize he's not out to puposefully shock. There is a method to his madness.

    I won't attack you for your Aguilera comments-I'll leave that to the wolves who should be coming soon.....:):):)
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  12. #27
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    Re: Good enough

    Originally posted by Johann
    I understand your position now.
    I should also take the illustration a step further because sometimes the "how" can still be a problem too. For instance, Aguilera, like many pop divas, has this annoying propensity to over-sing. She takes a note and starts doing scales with it in the middle of the song. Now, she may do it very skillfully but that doesn't mean its meaningful to the song or appropriate.

    Godard's jump cuts in Hail Mary are somewhat like that; sure, they are an example of Godard's skill in filmmaking but, in my final analysis, they are an abuse of that talent. It is often possible for a virtuso to get so caught up in their own skill that they forget that sometimes simple is better.

    Originally posted by Johann
    But if I may say, the "content" in Greenaway films is not as extreme as you say. The more you see the films the more you'll realize he's not out to puposefully shock. There is a method to his madness.
    I don't think Greenaway is out to shock so much; I just think that way he chooses to explore certain subject matter is, in some cases, depraved and, or at least, unnecessary. He'd be a much more effective filmmaker, in my opinion, if he reeled himself in.

    Originally posted by Johann
    I won't attack you for your Aguilera comments-I'll leave that to the wolves who should be coming soon.....:):):)
    Ahhh, it's just an illustration... hopefully nobody takes it seriously.
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
    Martin Scorsese

  13. #28
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    Hey guys

    Trying to catch up here while simultaneously watching the Oscars...say what you will about "Lost in Translation", Sophia Coppola is a classy woman.

    OK, I did say that I couldn't get into "8 1/2 Women", but that had just as much to do with my mood at the time as with the qualities of the film itself. I will give it another shot in the future when I'm not in such a pragmatic frame of mind.

    I was very impressed with "The Pillow Book", just as much with its content as with its style. It's a wonderful story about passion: the passion of tradition, the passion of the pen, and the passion of the flesh. Greenaway blended those together beautifully, and the style of the film was just as impressive. It's not for every taste, it's probably not even for mainstream tastes; the abundant male nudity and the apparent de-skinning of Ewan McGregor probably would cause significant discomfort for many people. But, I recognize that Greenaway films are not to be taken literally. They're parables, and really odd ones at that.

    "8 1/2 Women" didn't seem to hold together like "The Pillow Book" did, but I'm willing to give it another chance. It seemed like the actors playing the father and son weren't even taking it seriously, but maybe that was part of Greenaway's idea for the film.

    Woo-hoo! Lord of the Rings wins...

  14. #29
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    8 1/2 Women was described by Bob Graham of the San Francisco Chronicle as "a surreal comedy about sex that comes as close to charming as Greenaway ever gets".
    I agree 100%.

    Ebert gave it three stars, saying " it's not possible to "like" this film, although one admires it, and is intrigued".


    It also has Greenaway himself in it, very briefly, near the beginning in the pachinko parlour. When you see the women on the machines you can see Peter walk past in the background.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by Johann
    8 1/2 Women was described by Bob Graham of the San Francisco Chronicle as "a surreal comedy about sex that comes as close to charming as Greenaway ever gets".

    The scene I most remember is where the father and son are both standing naked in front of a large mirror. The son then tries to seduce his own father, with the explanation that incest of the Oedipal kind is really just between a son and his mother.

    Charming, yes?

    Rather, I prefer the scene where they're at the mother's funeral and the father realizes he's wearing the wrong colored clothes, so he strips down to nothing and changes clothes with one of the other men there.

    Just giving you a hard time, here. It definately can be described as "surreal", and I will most certainly watch it again in an attempt to figure out just what Greenaway's trying to do with the film.

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