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Thread: Eve of Destruction

  1. #1
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    Eve of Destruction

    I've been mulling over my impressions of Fahrenheit for a few days now and I've come to some conclusions.
    (I don't need to see it again).

    -This film should affect the election in November, but will it? Will Americans "buy a flag and re-claim their country" as some guy on the imdb said? Will they send a strong message to that jackass cowboy-cum-psychopath who is in the White House? (RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK)

    -I got the distinct feeling that this is just the tip of the iceberg. What Moore kindly lets us know is that the corruption is so deep-rooted, so "across-the-board", so inconceivably fucked up that we must do something now to put a halt to this madness. I say we because even though I'm Canadian I sympathize with the good, hardworking people who make the States as great as they are. You're not that different from us.

    -To be exploited, to be used, to be lied to and to be ignored is the greatest crime of all. Moore shows how it all happened: how the man wasn't even elected, how it's played out since, and how action must be taken. Get rid of that motherfucking cancer known as George "biggest disgrace in the history of American politics" W. Bush.

    -The soldiers in Iraq were the most disturbing thing for me. They seemed like complete morons, total idiots who had no clue why they were there and oblivious to even basic rules of combat. I can't tell you how much contempt I have for the U.S. military now. People can argue that Moore only shows the "hotshots" and the "bad" side of the war, but there is no good side. The U.S. attacked that country with NO PROVOCATION. The scenes of Iraqi people crying over loved ones rings more true to me than that lady from Flint who told her children that the military was a great career move. Sorry, but her naivete is shocking. I didn't feel sorry for her at all. Her blind patriotism allowed her to experience a harrowing ordeal- the death of a loved one, just like the thousands of Iraqi's whose homes were ripped apart. I wanted to give that lady a shake: you think joining the army is all about fighting little wars and coming home victorious to ticker-tape parades? Get with it, lady. Bush lied to you and you paid for it the hard way. And it's still happening- her husband was absolutely right: what about the soldiers that are dying today? Right now?

    -Is the U.S. Presidency about bettering America and the lives of it's people? No. It's about money.
    If you don't believe it then you are the kind of American Dubya wants you to be.

    -Did I mention this man is sitting in the White House as we speak?

    -People say Moore made this film to justify his oscar speech. He made it because he loves his country and is only asking what happened to it. He wants it back, and so should you.
    The man is very smart. He'll keep making films that show us what we are until we all wake up. Is Fahrenheit enough to get people to say "You answer to us. And we say BURN, motherfucker, BURN".
    Last edited by Johann; 06-29-2004 at 12:47 PM.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  2. #2
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    Im off to see this right now. I am very excited. Much of what you point out is right on the money and I'm glad to hear that the film is born of such sentiment.

    Bush is an all time low in American history. What a shame for our country and what a detriment to the world.

    Moore is an absolute patriot (via his other films). He might be a little egotistical, but he's pinned the measure of himself as a man to something much greater than money.

    Im hopeful that through the thick fog that hangs over the US, there will be enough clarity to oust Bush and his gang of conspirators in the next election. We must reclaim our place amongst the other members of the world community. A young and untested country (relatively speaking) must start to show the signs of a maturing nation that can learn from history, account for its actions and be a positive presence on the earth. Otherwise...

    P

  3. #3
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    REQUIEM FOR ANDURIL

    I lost a friend today.
    He thinks Fahrenheit is propaganda of the first order.

    Funny, considering the images speak for themselves.

    Clip after clip after clip of raw sewage, flowing freely from the mouth of one of the most arrogant men to ever walk the earth.
    Tons of stock footage (many from major networks) that show beyond any possible doubt that the man in charge is a two-faced coward, a man whose only concern in life is fattening his pocketbook, at any cost- even the lives of his own countrymen.

    Propaganda my ass. If Stephen Harper became the Prime Minister of this country we'd be no different from Bush and his cronies. No fucking different. I don't like the Liberals, but we don't have anything better. The shit's so deep no one except a cunning politician would dare try to "lead the country".

    I'm feeling ill. But this too, shall pass.

    You can't argue with a filmed image.

    Yeah, great job, troops! OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM was a resounding sucess! Victory is ours! God Bless America!

    WE ARE THE GREAT LIBERATORS OF OUR TIME!
    WE ARE THE NATION THAT MAKES THINGS RIGHT IN THE WORLD!

    You can't argue with a filmed image.

    Anduril won't dare see fahrenheit. He's afraid of the truth for some reason. Yet he says he sticks to the facts. Give me a bleeding break. Something is not right. I think I'll stir a shitstorm, because I'm steaming mad that I lost a friend today:
    Your blindness will be the death of you. (It's been doing a good job so far)
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  4. #4
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    I won't see the movie because it is propaganda and I have no intention of having the proceeds of my money go to the types of causes that Moore advocates. Whatever Moore's talents as a documentary filmmaker (and I do not deny them), he rants and raves and distorts. See http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ for starters. The arguments he presents in the film are nothing new from the liberal left in the United States and I don't need to see the documentary to know that. What's more, there are people with a great deal more intelligence than Michael Moore who have decried the Bush Whitehouse and the Iraqi conflict; I've read their material. So, don't bother throw the red herring at me that I need to see this movie...

    And Johann: You're awfully naive if you think the filmed image doesn't lie. The skill of a director to use edits, cuts, and juxtapose images and thereby create a fiction is elaborate, extensive, and well-known. Any person who takes seriously film should be aware of that but you are so caught up in your love affair with film that it speaks no evil and you hear no evil.

    You didn't lose a friend today; you purposefully denounced me today because you can't handle the fact that I have a different view from you. Good luck with that!

    I will defend to the teeth the decision made by the Americans, the British, and many other Coalition governments to liberate Iraq. It was the right decision to make then and it remains the right decision today. Moore's talent for distortion and the liberal left change nothing on this issue.
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
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  5. #5
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    A little blurb from a foxnews.com writer who was not a big Moore fan:

    From Roger Friedman's / FOXNews.com review of the premier.

    ...

    But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.

    As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" - as we saw last night - is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty - and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice.

    Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets such as Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say.

    Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and bin Laden families.

    ...

    Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion on the film. Though I must say Anduril that it would be a more interesting discussion if you saw the film!...Perhaps you could buy a ticket to something else and see Moore's movie instead...Ive heard of people doing that who feel similarily to you.

  6. #6
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    That's not a bad suggestion, pmw. I'll have to see if I can arrange that in the next little while before the film slinks out of theatres. I'm just in the midst of completing my thesis so time is tight with me these days. Still, I'll see if I can swing that. Never pulled that sort of trick before.
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
    Martin Scorsese

  7. #7
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    Incidentally, I have no doubt, as stated, that Moore is a talented filmmaker and, if I happen to make it in to see the film, I expect to have that confirmed with F9/11. The problem I have with F9/11 arises out of its distortion and misrepresentation; it is propaganda, meant to manipulate viewers to share the opinions of its filmmaker. It denies the viewer relevant facts and leaves open to them only one view--the filmmaker's. Michael Moore's website and rhetoric are enough to substantiate this interpretation.

    The links between the Bush family, the House of Saud, and the Bin Ladens are well-known to me as well as the 'suspicious' movement of Saudis out of the country post-9/11. The complicated web of oil and other business connections is something I also know. I have seen and read ad nauseam about liberal opinions that the war lacked justification or legitimacy, that deny the existence of WMD and terrorist links to Saddam's regime, that argue for the inhumanity of the conflict, that lament the lost lives of American soldiers, and that carciature the right as heartless and elitist imperialists and socio-economic tyrants. I also understand and know about the American complicity in arming Saddam. There are also the arguments that Republican administrations turned a blind eye to Halabja and initially to the invasion of Kuwait that set off GWI--these are known to me as well. I also have read extensively about the so-called neo-conservative movement, their 'manifestos' and their pre-planning on Iraq. I also know the 'suspicious' chronological issues on 9/11 and liberal opinions about Bush's performance on that day. I've read countless collections of quotes that point out, or attempt to point out, inconsistencies and contradictions in the public and private, former and later statements of various cabinet officials. I've read many publicly available government, congressional, senate, and committee briefs on the events relating to 9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq. I'm well acquianted with Moore's take that the media failed to ask the 'hard' questions. I know about the liberal complaints about Bush's military service. I understand the issues around the Abu Ghraib situation. I've also come across the liberal arguments that attempt to shock people with staggering civilian and military deaths. Yadda, yadda, yadda... etc. etc. etc. ... this is not an issue that I'm uninformed about. I doubt very much that Moore will have anything to present that I have not already read about or seen.

    The skill of his film will be in the way he attempts to manipulate the viewer into accepting his perspective on these issues. To accomplish this, he will juxtapose images, suppress and ignore facts, utilize innuendo and imply connections, telescope events, make edits and cuts that distort reality, and so on.

    Also, I should point out, I'm not a Bush or Republican groupie who subscribes carte blanche to everything claimed by them. Ditto for right-wing commentators like Vox Day, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, etc. etc. etc. Though I support Operation Iraqi Freedom and the war on terrorism, I come to my positions by my own research and support Bush, however imperfect he has carried on the Presidency and the Iraqi conflict, because ultimately his views more closely reflect my own.
    Last edited by anduril; 06-30-2004 at 03:35 AM.
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
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  8. #8
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    Re: Eve of Destruction

    Originally posted by Johann

    -The soldiers in Iraq were the most disturbing thing for me. They seemed like complete morons, total idiots who had no clue why they were there and oblivious to even basic rules of combat. I can't tell you how much contempt I have for the U.S. military now. People can argue that Moore only shows the "hotshots" and the "bad" side of the war, but there is no good side. The U.S. attacked that country with NO PROVOCATION. The scenes of Iraqi people crying over loved ones rings more true to me than that lady from Flint who told her children that the military was a great career move. Sorry, but her naivete is shocking. I didn't feel sorry for her at all. Her blind patriotism allowed her to experience a harrowing ordeal- the death of a loved one, just like the thousands of Iraqi's whose homes were ripped apart. I wanted to give that lady a shake: you think joining the army is all about fighting little wars and coming home victorious to ticker-tape parades? Get with it, lady. Bush lied to you and you paid for it the hard way. And it's still happening- her husband was absolutely right: what about the soldiers that are dying today? Right now?

    Johan, buddy, I admire your passion but with all due respect I think you missed the point.
    (in my best Obe Wan voice:) Look deeper, young patawan.

    Those soldiers weren't morons, or even trigger happy shitheads as they may have come off. They were scared little kids. All of that bravado and apparent bloodlust has been instilled in them by a military industrial complex. C’mon, Johan. You saw Full Metal Jacket. It's what they put on to hide their fear from the camera, their colleagues and themselves

    It’s important to read between the lines in Moore’s Films and not to get too carried away. Unfortunately, a style like Michael’s is the only way to get across to people in this “Reality TV” era.
    (anduril) It denies the viewer relevant facts and leaves open to them only one view--the filmmaker's. Michael Moore's website and rhetoric are enough to substantiate this interpretation.
    You’re absolutely right, but it’s not as though he’s hiding relevant facts because they might upset his point. Feel free to prove me wrong. One fact that Moore failed to mention was the fact that as proposals to the house judiciary committee failed to gain approval of the senate, John Kerry sat on the Senate as did Al Gore. Who’s side are they on, anyways?

    Raoul

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    Re: Re: Eve of Destruction

    Originally posted by Raoul
    You’re absolutely right, but it’s not as though he’s hiding relevant facts because they might upset his point. Feel free to prove me wrong.
    That's exactly what he is doing; as I already pointed out, see http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ for starters.
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
    Martin Scorsese

  10. #10
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    Now we get down to it.


    Raoul- as a former Infantry soldier, I can speak with confidence about those soldiers. The "bravado" they displayed was part and parcel of a coping with the situation, sure, but man, the Canadian government SHUT DOWN our Airborne Regiment for the same behavior in Somalia. The soldiers are mocking their "enemies"- what the fuck is all this sexual shit? Naked prisoners, posing, simulating masturbation? What the hell kind of army thinks this is "proper conduct"? The Geneva Convention seems non-existant!
    War Crimes. War Crimes. War Crimes.
    Want me to say it again?

    Fucking War Crimes.

    There is a lot I love about America but man, that shit don't fly.
    How the fuck are you gonna be respected as a liberator- like Canada was to Holland- go to Holland and ask anyone what they think of Canadians- that's gratitude for liberation, mario.
    The U.S. military seem like a gang of phony machismo egomaniacal rapists. Yes, I saw Full Metal Jacket- it's the same thing! Who's criticizing Kubrick? No one. Don't shoot the messenger. Kubrick didn't go to war- he just showed it to us.
    "We are jolly green giants, walking the earth!"

    Have we learned nothing?
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  11. #11
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    to anduril

    You have more than a different point of view. I entertain differing points of view. Why would I be here? I would just sit in solitude, happy with what I know. I seek differing points of view AND give up my own with supreme confidence.

    You have unmitigated blindness.

    I see both sides of the coin- you see one.

    See, this world of ours is not so simple as you think. You can't "pick a party" and run with them. So many variables, so many issues...the planet is so unpredictable, the very nature of life so esoteric (and beautiful) that we cannot count on our leaders. Why? Because they're not like us- they don't live like us (JUST LIKE MOORE POINTS OUT) They don't give a shit about our problems. Oh, they'll tell you they do, they'll pledge that they do, but you have more naivete than me if you think they're gonna follow through.

    The filmed image. Let's get down to brass taxes my blind ex-friend:

    1. Movies are fundamentally deception. The movie Galaxy Quest showed us what the movie business is in a humourous way. The aliens wondered why humans called TV entertainment, when it was not real. They asked why we would entertain ourselves with a fictional show. With "lies".

    2. There's a colossal difference between "giving it up" for such obvious, flagrant media and "giving it up" for a film (Fahrenheit) which has essentially only one question: What is going on?
    Which begs the question, Kenneth: can you tell the difference between fact and fiction?

    In this case, clearly the answer is NO.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

  12. #12
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    Thanks for posting a link to Fahrenheit Fact, Ken-

    TOO BAD NO ONE CAN CONTEST IT BECAUSE THEY WON'T ALLOW COMMENTS. I'm sure Moore himself has tried to speak out on the site.

    This is what I'm talking about: one side of the coin, draconian fear-based blindness.

    And the fact that you haven't even seen the film makes me wonder why I'm even addressing you at this point.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

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    Re: Re: Re: Eve of Destruction

    Originally posted by anduril

    That's exactly what he is doing; as I already pointed out, see http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/ for starters.
    You've pointed us in the general direction of a stream of conciousness library that caters to kneejerk right wing apologists.

    I'd be interested in seeing dirict refuations of Points of fact made in the movie. Please do this forum a favour and pick the pieces of that blog that you feel best represent it's points in specific and in spirit. I don't have time to sift through all of the bullshit rhetoric (ie: moore is fat, moore is unamerican....)

    As I brought up in the other thread: This is America. If Moore distorted the facts, told lies, made unfair assertions or depictions, he's going to get sued. The guy's making a pile of money off of this movie that could probably fill my office a few times in large bills. If it's untrue or defamatory in any way, lawyers should be licking their lips.

    As of yet, nothing.

    Raoul

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    Not a word from Bush, either

    Hello darkness my old friend
    I've come to talk to you again

    The sound of silence.


    Moore has gone on record: anyone who thinks anything in Fahrenheit is false, he'll give complete disclosure on where, when, and who gave him the information.

    The man is a hero- he's going against authority and overcoming it. The government is for the people, right? That's precisely the problem. The people aren't happy. The people feel cheated. The people want answers. the people deserve answers.

    The people aren't getting answers. They're getting rhetoric- from Bush, not Moore, Ken- fuck the ignorance is staggering- the U.S. is at an all-time low (like pmw pointed out) and it does not have to continue. SHOULD NOT continue.
    "Set the controls for the heart of the Sun" - Pink Floyd

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Eve of Destruction

    Raoul: I'm not your librarian. If you can't spend a couple of minutes sifting through the blog that's your problem not mine. You won't have to go far for salient points about the movie because they don't waste time.

    RE: Litigation. You'd think so, eh? But, why then are the political pundits able to publish volumes upon volumes of lies month by month. The fact is that Moore's movie will receive protection under the very same forces that come to work to protect political booksales and op-eds in this country. Oh, and add to that, very bad move for Bush and the White House administration to sue Moore in an election year; better to ignore it.
    http://anduril.ca/movies/

    There's a spirituality in films, even if it's not one which can supplant faith
    Martin Scorsese

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